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Why 2 different mechanics for the same thing (Integrity/Humanity)?

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  • Why 2 different mechanics for the same thing (Integrity/Humanity)?

    Why 2 different mechanics for the same thing (Integrity/Humanity)?
    I would use the same mechanic for both: any ideas?

  • #2
    Because it's not the same thing. They are different because they measure two different (although somewhat similar) concepts that are supposed to reinforce two different themes for two different games.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      They really aren't the same. Integrity reflects how well humans handle traumatic experiences, Humanity reflects how well vampires can fake being human and the lower the vampire's Humanity rating, the stronger the various drawbacks of being a vampire affect it.
      Last edited by tsusasi; 11-19-2020, 06:50 AM.

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      • #4
        Harmony (werewolf) use the same Resolve + Composure as Integrity, but they are willdly different...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LukeZS View Post
          Harmony (werewolf) use the same Resolve + Composure as Integrity, but they are willdly different...
          Yes? Are you asking why Humanity uses dice pools based on tiers instead of Res+Com? It's actually Integrity and Harmony that breaks the norm. How Humanity works is how all equivalent traits worked in the first edition of most CofD games. In second edition they decided to not follow a single model if they could come up with something that works better for those games. That's why they are different between different games; to work as well as possible for all of them. The devs for VtR 2e simply just thought the old model already worked well enough so no use in changing it dramatically when just adjusting it would suffice.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            If you're asking if you can use the system for Integrity instead of the one for Humanity, that's pretty simple. When 2E Vampire was still just in preview form, I used the God-Machine Integrity rules instead of standard Humanity for a 1E game I ran. That said, you'd probably want to adjust it thematically in terms of when vampires take breaking points, as Humanity is a measure of how human you seem, not how well adjusted you are to the world. You'd also have to decide if that system changes how Touchstones work, and if you want to keep them at all, as the dice pools for Integrity tend to be bigger (though dumping them means the Ventrue clan bane has to change too). Otherwise, Humanity and Integrity are used to measure a lot of the same things.

            If you're asking the reverse, that strikes me as harder. You'd have to come up with a list of mortal breaking points, or use some version of the old hierarchy of sins from first edition, which was always a little creaky.



            Social justice vampire/freelancer | He/Him

            Actual Play: Vampire: The Requiem – Bloodlines
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            • #7
              I was thinking about a "conversion" between the two systems.
              Under the "Blood Bonds" chapter, it says:
              First Stage: Causing direct or indirect harm to one’s regnant constitutes a breaking point at Humanity 5 (3 dice), or on Integrity with a penalty of –2.
              Second Stage: Causing indirect or direct harm to one’s regnant constitutes a breaking point at Humanity 3 (2 dice), or on Integrity with a penalty of –3.
              Third Stage: Causing indirect or direct harm to one’s regnant constitutes a breaking point at Humanity 1 (0 dice), or on Integrity with a penalty of –5.

              So there could be a "simple" translation mechanism...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LukeZS View Post
                So there could be a "simple" translation mechanism...
                I don't think there can be anything of the sort that would work well at different Humanity levels. There's very little difference in high and low Integrity humans, comparatively speaking. Aside from individual questions, anything that is a breaking point at Integrity 10 will also be a breaking point at Integrity 1. Characters with low Integrity will often shift their personalised questions quite a bit, but there are plenty of things that will remain a breaking point at all times. Humanity is basically the opposite of that: At Humanity 10 there are so many things that are breaking points that it's difficult to avoid them in your regular night-to-night life while at Humanity 1 it's almost as difficult to face breaking points at all. The difference between high and low Humanity is massive both in what constitutes a breaking point, but also the behaviour associated with each end of the scale.

                In short; Integrity isn't tiered because people at different Integrity levels are still quite similar, and Humanity is tiered because vampires at different Humanity levels are wildly different in both actions and mindsets. Translating Humanity to work like Integrity would seriously mess up the whole thing because it kinda forces everyone to behave according to the same rules and you'll most likely have to axe the high end of the tiered Humanity scale to make it workable at all (or have everyone risk becoming draugr because they drink human blood, use Disciplines, or spend Vitae on stuff other than waking up), Translating Integrity to work like Humanity works better (which we know for a fact since that's how 1e Morality already used to work) but if you're recreating Morality then you lose out on many, if not most, improvements we got from Integrity.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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