Mental disciplines

[Marcus]

I have always more the feeling that using mental discipline is a bit broken. If the target has not celerity to interrupt/anticipate the domination it is 90% resulting in himself being dominated.
And this is true also for mid/high BP targets.
I feel it a bit broken because a neonate (let's say BP1), with skills and attributes distributed to be efficient in Dominate usage, easily rolls same if not more dice than an elder with BP 5-6, which doesn't sound fair imho.

The reason is because the attacker rolls summing 3 characteristic, two of which are usually above 3. An average neonate roll is 7-8 dice, more if the character is built on dominate, in which case she can easily roll also 9-10 dice at creation level. Defending elder (BP 6) rolls an average of 9-10 dice (12 with indomitable which I don't like to give to anyone only to make harder for a neonate to mesmerize an elder).
In this example I'm considering an elder with BP 6, the gap and unbalance become even larger for those kindred with BP below 5.

Do you also have the same feeling? Seems that Majesty in this is much more balanced as is requiring a contested aura roll to activate the prerequisite awe (which is much more fair as both of the vampires are rolling on BP + 1 stat).
Would you think using a similar mechanic (as awe) be more right?

This issue is not only related to Dominate but also to Nightmare and Auspex indeed.

[tsusasi]

No, I think Majesty and Auspex and to a lesser extent Obfuscate are broken from a pure “what the book does and does not say” standpoint but I have no hang ups about telling players no and/or use negative situational modifiers. Dominate has a hard word count, low damage threshold and two resist checks, Nightmare has some highly specific restrictions on their effects and is reliant on the initial Dread to be useful. When you refuse to use the mechanics provided to build up NPC resistances, refuse to make them intelligent enough to not devise counters to some or all of the standard baseline vampiric mindrape powers (which would be a perfectly legitimate thing to have a character who’s been around over 100+ years do, hence why they’re still around) and have them dumb enough to travel alone in a vacuum and agree to meet all alone with no witnesses, of course your out of the box neonate PCs will easily bitchslap them.

[Live Bait]

The counter to Dominate is a catering staff of Ghouls with orders to slap the vampire if they think he’s been dominated, also video conferencing with a closed system connection.

[Marcus]

The counter to Dominate is a catering staff of Ghouls with orders to slap the vampire if they think he’s been dominated, also video conferencing with a closed system connection.

This is definitely true, and this is what I'm always doing when PCs are trying to meet elders or elders need to secretly meet them. But it risk to become redundant. I've been ghouled/animal2 animals instructed to bite a dominated kindred. I've been using ghouls, I've been used invisible vampires etc. This does not solve the root cause of the concern I have.

An unprepared elders is mechanically to easy to be dominated, feared, mind read. In VtM was impossible to dominate lower generations, which was, to an extent, the opposite extreme.
In my opinion there should be more balance on the roll as it is for Awe (and Majesty in general as it all depending on Awe).

[tsusasi]

There's this nifty ability vampires get tied to their Predatory Aura that enables them to Lash Out and makes themselves immune to Awe and Dread and breaks all applications of Obfuscate. As I said before, you simply refuse to make use of the default tools already available.

[Griautis]

I don't see anything wrong with "a lone, unprepared elder gets fucked by disciplines". They have spent ages honing their techniques to dodge these problems. If someone, (likely the PCs), manages to maneuver this Elder into a position where he's vulnerable, YAY that's a win for the PCs. If the PC elder get's outmaneuvered - well, that's a loss.

Seems like this "works", in a sense that it's a gameable system, in a game.

[Neos01]

Dominate also require eye contact.
I can totally see an elder talking behind a veil, using teleconference or simply keeping his eyes closed

[Tessie]

I ecvo the above sentiments: An unprepared elder would never become an elder in the first place.
Also, even if you have a decent 50/50 chance at BP1 to dominate an elder, you also have a roughly equal chance of turning into a bloodstain under their boot. Dominate is by far the most direct of the mental Disciplines, but it's also the one that's going to face the harshest consequences for failure. Even succeeding doesn't necessarily prevent retaliation in the future if you use it on the wrong character.

[Graylion]

There's this nifty ability vampires get tied to their Predatory Aura that enables them to Lash Out and makes themselves immune to Awe and Dread and breaks all applications of Obfuscate. As I said before, you simply refuse to make use of the default tools already available.

I was not aware you could lash out to break/pierce obfuscate. I know Auspex grants a clash of wills.

[Marcus]

I was not aware you could lash out to break/pierce obfuscate. I know Auspex grants a clash of wills.

If I'm not wrong you can lash out against obfuscate 3 only if you manage to percieve him through Auspex, meaning that before you need to succed the clash of will roll

[Tessie]

If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.

[Neos01]

If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.

From core book you can lash out only against Cloak of night.
If not, i don t understand the utility of the Shatter the Shroud Devotion

[Neos01]

If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.

Thinking about it, it seems strange to me using Lash out to interrupt a mental Discipline, as in Majesty and Nightmare it only negate its effect.
Maybe it s an error.
May i ask to Rose Bailey if i m wrong?

[Marcus]

From core book you can lash out only against Cloak of night.
If not, i don t understand the utility of the Shatter the Shroud Devotion

Actually the core says:

as does any other use of obfuscate the vampire made

Seems that the difference with the devotion is that, with that one, you only need to win the CoW without going through the lash out. Hence you need a roll less.

[Satchel]

Seems that the difference with the devotion is that, with that one, you only need to win the CoW without going through the lash out. Hence you need a roll less.

My understanding of the difference is that Shatter the Shroud only works on the individual power you're dealing with, whereas lashing out requires you to be lashing out against the vampire themselves (which dominos into turning off all their other active Obfuscate powers, but means that you can't do this to proxy applications of the power like Touch of Shadow or Oubliette).