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  • Marcus
    started a topic Mental disciplines

    Mental disciplines

    I have always more the feeling that using mental discipline is a bit broken. If the target has not celerity to interrupt/anticipate the domination it is 90% resulting in himself being dominated.
    And this is true also for mid/high BP targets.
    I feel it a bit broken because a neonate (let's say BP1), with skills and attributes distributed to be efficient in Dominate usage, easily rolls same if not more dice than an elder with BP 5-6, which doesn't sound fair imho.

    The reason is because the attacker rolls summing 3 characteristic, two of which are usually above 3. An average neonate roll is 7-8 dice, more if the character is built on dominate, in which case she can easily roll also 9-10 dice at creation level. Defending elder (BP 6) rolls an average of 9-10 dice (12 with indomitable which I don't like to give to anyone only to make harder for a neonate to mesmerize an elder).
    In this example I'm considering an elder with BP 6, the gap and unbalance become even larger for those kindred with BP below 5.

    Do you also have the same feeling? Seems that Majesty in this is much more balanced as is requiring a contested aura roll to activate the prerequisite awe (which is much more fair as both of the vampires are rolling on BP + 1 stat).
    Would you think using a similar mechanic (as awe) be more right?

    This issue is not only related to Dominate but also to Nightmare and Auspex indeed.

  • tsusasi
    replied
    Originally posted by Graylion View Post

    I was not aware you could lash out to break/pierce obfuscate. I know Auspex grants a clash of wills.
    If you win a predatory aura contest against someone using Obfuscate, you shatter every Obfuscate power they have running. You don’t require Auspex to see through Obfuscate but you do require a high enough perception skill to offset the penalty associated with the Obfuscate use. And of course if they touch you, or attempt to use Obfuscate to conceal you from others, you automatically gain immunity to all their obfuscate uses.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

    From core book you can lash out only against Cloak of night.
    If not, i don t understand the utility of the Shatter the Shroud Devotion
    Yes. I said that applies when Lashing Out against Cloak of Night. It's just that all other effects also fail if you Lash Out against a vampire who happens to use Cloak of Night.
    Shatter the Shroud, on the other hand can be used against any hiding power (including Obfuscate but also powers from other splats) and does not require spending WP to Lash Out against a vampire and isn't immediately obvious that you're using unlike the actions required to Lash Out. The downside is that it only works if you've already won a CoW with Auspex, but if that's how you detected the Obfuscated vampires in the first place you only need to spend two Vitae to break the effect reflexively and automatically instead of needing to spend a WP (which generally is more precious than 2 Vitae) and an additional action on Lashing Out which also gives the Obfuscated vampire the chance to win the Lashing Out roll if they choose to respond.

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  • Neos01
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    My understanding of the difference is that Shatter the Shroud only works on the individual power you're dealing with, whereas lashing out requires you to be lashing out against the vampire themselves (which dominos into turning off all their other active Obfuscate powers, but means that you can't do this to proxy applications of the power like Touch of Shadow or Oubliette).
    It s a good explaination, but imply that it should be possible to lash out also against Face in the crowd, don t you think so?

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcus View Post
    Seems that the difference with the devotion is that, with that one, you only need to win the CoW without going through the lash out. Hence you need a roll less.
    My understanding of the difference is that Shatter the Shroud only works on the individual power you're dealing with, whereas lashing out requires you to be lashing out against the vampire themselves (which dominos into turning off all their other active Obfuscate powers, but means that you can't do this to proxy applications of the power like Touch of Shadow or Oubliette).

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  • Marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

    From core book you can lash out only against Cloak of night.
    If not, i don t understand the utility of the Shatter the Shroud Devotion

    Actually the core says:
    as does any other use of obfuscate the vampire made
    Seems that the difference with the devotion is that, with that one, you only need to win the CoW without going through the lash out. Hence you need a roll less.

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  • Neos01
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.
    Thinking about it, it seems strange to me using Lash out to interrupt a mental Discipline, as in Majesty and Nightmare it only negate its effect.
    Maybe it s an error.
    May i ask to Rose Bailey if i m wrong?

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  • Neos01
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.
    From core book you can lash out only against Cloak of night.
    If not, i don t understand the utility of the Shatter the Shroud Devotion

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    If you're aware of the vampire in any way (such as being attacked by the vampire, being the subject of Touch of Shadow, succeeding on the mundane rolls to find the vampire, or through use of Auspex and winning a CoW) you could Lash Out to completely shatter Cloak the Night and any other Obfuscate powers that were active.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by Graylion View Post

    I was not aware you could lash out to break/pierce obfuscate. I know Auspex grants a clash of wills.
    If I'm not wrong you can lash out against obfuscate 3 only if you manage to percieve him through Auspex, meaning that before you need to succed the clash of will roll

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  • Graylion
    replied
    Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
    There's this nifty ability vampires get tied to their Predatory Aura that enables them to Lash Out and makes themselves immune to Awe and Dread and breaks all applications of Obfuscate. As I said before, you simply refuse to make use of the default tools already available.
    I was not aware you could lash out to break/pierce obfuscate. I know Auspex grants a clash of wills.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    I ecvo the above sentiments: An unprepared elder would never become an elder in the first place.
    Also, even if you have a decent 50/50 chance at BP1 to dominate an elder, you also have a roughly equal chance of turning into a bloodstain under their boot. Dominate is by far the most direct of the mental Disciplines, but it's also the one that's going to face the harshest consequences for failure. Even succeeding doesn't necessarily prevent retaliation in the future if you use it on the wrong character.

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  • Neos01
    replied
    Dominate also require eye contact.
    I can totally see an elder talking behind a veil, using teleconference or simply keeping his eyes closed

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  • Griautis
    replied
    I don't see anything wrong with "a lone, unprepared elder gets fucked by disciplines". They have spent ages honing their techniques to dodge these problems. If someone, (likely the PCs), manages to maneuver this Elder into a position where he's vulnerable, YAY that's a win for the PCs. If the PC elder get's outmaneuvered - well, that's a loss.

    Seems like this "works", in a sense that it's a gameable system, in a game.

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  • tsusasi
    replied
    There's this nifty ability vampires get tied to their Predatory Aura that enables them to Lash Out and makes themselves immune to Awe and Dread and breaks all applications of Obfuscate. As I said before, you simply refuse to make use of the default tools already available.
    Last edited by tsusasi; 01-05-2021, 06:16 AM.

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