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Spreading the Curse [Malkavia and Other Things]

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  • Spreading the Curse [Malkavia and Other Things]

    Trigger Warning- this post is going to use concepts which are disease related. As most of the world still suffers from COVID-19 at this point of time, we should be careful when talking about those subjects, as many people use RPG as a form of escapism. I am going to try my best to use alternative words and such, but if you have personal issues with the current pandemic specifically or with diseases in general, it may be better for you to skip this post.

    So why is it that every time that Yossarian and his team publuish something new, my brain goes on rambling about vampires?

    Vampire is, after all, a very rich game, and unlike most of the other gamelines its cosmology is more of a mix of different, unrelated concepts than something coherent. Because of that, Vampire can host a full menagerie of unrelated horrors, with each just doing "its own thing" without being confined to some bigger system in order to justify their existence. You want some shadow based monsters which haunt the dead? You got it. You want some living vampires which get high on vitae? No problem. Strange blood sorcerers which make bargains with unknown entities? Sure. A mind breaking condition which infects the self proclaimed "lords of the night"? Just throw some Malkavia into the mess! Now, because of that nature of Vampire, especially in late 1e and 2e, there is no one forcing you to enforce the same concepts over all of the different splats- like, originally, the Strix were only a Julii thing, and were suppossed to take part in Requiem for Rome (as far as I'm aware, at least). It is only because they were so popular that they became such an integral part of the game as they are today. The same for Hollow Mekhet- while the Mekhet Clan Book introduced the idea of a post mortem Embrace for all clans, Hollows were something unique to the Mekhet's oown metaphysics, and as such no similar parallels were introduced to the other clans (even though you could argue that the Pijavicia are the Gangrel's "Hollow" version, but that is a subject for its own post). The same goes for Malkavia- sure, it was a very cool concept, and even the book itself suggested that you could potentially allow other vampires to be inflicted with it, but it was mostly a Ventrue thing, based around their own tendency to go mad with power. That was the Vantrue's curse, and as such it made sense for it to be a Ventrue thing, and we could just accept it- or, if we really want to, expand it, but keep it as its own thing.

    But than Better Feared had to mess things up.

    Yeah, I know that it is not official and blah blah blah, but it is a really cool book, which have many cool concepts. Now, while the book have introduced all kinds of awesome things, one of the more interesting ones is, IMO, the presentation of the Noctuku as an infection instead of a bloodline. Again, it is not that Vampire lacks any supernatural afflictions- diseases and parasites have been a part of it for a very long, so again, you could throw in yet another supernatural contagion and be done with it (yeah, you could in theory fold all of those things under the capital C Contagion, but where is the fun in that?). Anyway, while that concept stands on its own without an issue, the idea of a clan specific infection which express the inner monstrosity and banes of the said clan does sound very similar to the idea behind Malkavia. Again, there is nothing that stops you from having just those two things as clan specific afflictions, but once you apply the same concept on more than one clan, it is your fault that other people (like me) are going to wonder "what if there was a similar concept to all of the main clans? Heck, what is the meaning of having such supernatural curses which basically move the vampire to the extreme form of their own Damnation?"

    And that's what we are going to discuss here- even though it would be less focused around what those afflictions could be for other clans (even though I may touch them) and more about the implication of having such things as a part of Vampire's own cosmology.

    So when we examine the two different affliction, we can see that while they somewhat correspond to the defying Discipline of the Clan in question, they are more closely related to the Bane that the said Clan suffers from- Malkavia breaks the mind of the inflicted, yet it is a product of their own detachment from humanity. The Nocktuku strain turns the Nosferatu into an horrifying monster, which means that yes, it is about turning into a monster. Now, the thing about such transmittible afflictions is that those are statistical entities instead of individuals. Examining how a certain inflicted behaves due to the curse in question could help you to treat that person, yet in order to understand the phenomenon, you must examine something which is much more swarm like, an emergent property which rises from the collective of all people who carry that curse. And as those afflictions are tied very closely to the nature of the Beast, we could think about the behavior of the affliction as a "emergent conscious"- like how the God Machine could be viewed as the sum of all Infrastructures... or that we are the emergent conscious of all of our cells. And now, if the spread of the said curse is directed by some emergent conscious of some sort, that means we could think about those vampires inflicted by it as its "angels" and the vectors of the spread as "infrastructures", which leads to a certain, interesting concept.

    You guessed it- living Disciplines.

    I have talked about it in an earlier post, but in short I have a theory that in Vampire, the Disciplines could be thought about as being "alive"- well, not alive in the traditional sense, but alive in the way that they are driving forces which embody themselves in the Clans, and use them in order to propegate and expand their reach as they fight against one another in the ever destructive food chain, raising and falling in a darwinian struggle for evolution. The idea is quit simple- it is not that first you have a Clan which express a certain features in the form of Disciplines, but that first you had the Disciplines, which embodied themselves in the corpses of humanity in order to feed and grow. Now, the said post has rised from a different, even more important question- which is, what is the meaning of a Clan? Like, what defines a vampire as being a part of one clan and not the other? The answer seems to be their bane- for even if you werre to have two clans with the same Discipline spread and the same favored attributes, they would be considered as seperate clans if and only if their banes are different. This is why the Hollow Mekhet are not the same clan as the regular Mekeht- even though that they are very close to them, and do share a common origin. Having the same Discipline spread but different bane AND attributes is the next level of divergence (like the Pijavicia and the Gangrel) and so on and so on. At any case, the point is that the curse matters. It is a feature independent of the Disciplines, and as such if the Disciplines are alive, shouldn't the Bane also be alive? If the Disciplines create the clans yet are not the clans, and the clans are defined by their curses, then the banes are the Beasts incarnated- or in other words, the Curse is the mother of all Beasts. After all, if the Curse was a product of the Disciplines being unified, than no two clans could have shared the same Discipline spread and have different curses. And if the banes are "living", then they, too, would try to spread and propogate across the world.

    Now, the thing is that even if we were to count both Disciplines and Banes as "living things", the thing is that each of those spreads differently- Disciplines spread by embodying themselves in the dead. A cortpse gets awakened by the taste of sweet Vitae, and the Disciplines force themselves into it, creating a clan or a bloodline. The more successful a Discipline is, the more species of vampirism is creates. On the other hand, Banes propegate by having vampires Embrace other humans into their fold or by uplifting revenants. The is, ther more successful the Bane, the more units of vampirism it creates. And that, my friends, leads me to my favorite topic in science (evenm though I less like it currently as I study it in my PhD)- thermodynamics.

    Now, thermodynamics in general is the study of processes within large systems- anything which is related to emergent properties and how many different objects would behave when interacting with one another can only be solved by using thermodynamic methods. That's true not only about regular objects such as molecules and particles, but also about thinkings entities, such as animals and humans. I mean, it is impossible to predict what an individual person would do, but it is not that difficult to guess how an whole nation would act, considering the needed information is honest and availble. That's how surveys before elections work- people can and do change their mind regularly, but the overall system acts the same. And after establishing why thermodynamics should work, let's talk about how it is applied to the study of vampires.

    In order to describe a system through a thermodynamic formalism, one needs to describe a potential, which is made from all kinds of different confinements on physical properties, which gives us all kinds of so called "thermodynamic variables", the most famous of which are things like pressure and (of course) entropy. If we wish to describe the propogation of a certain species within a system, we need to use potential called "the Gibbs free energy", which for the subject of this post you only need to knwo that it exists. The Gibbs free energy has two main contributions- the ever famous entropy, and the lesser known yet equally important enthalpy. Again, I'm not going to go deep into thermodynamic because we don't care about it, but what you should care about is that entropy drives the system towards "disorder" while the enthalpy drive it towards "order"- and that the entropy term is more dominant by increasing the number of species while the enthalpy drives towards defining the system. So if you have a property which benefits by creating more and more species, it is entropic by nature, while if you have a property which increases by reinforcing interactions between the same species, it is enthalpic in nature.

    You see where I'm getting at, right?

    Here is the thing- by having all of the required information about the system of Vampirism, we could describe the "Vitae free energy" as a potential which decides how many vampires of a certain clan would exist, and whether or not a certain clan would come into existence at all. The two main contributions to that potential are the Disciplines spread that it carries and the Bane that it express. The Disciplines are entropic in nature, and actually have the tendency to combine with one another and drive towards adding more and more Disciplines (like the creation of Bloodlines or even how vampires can learn more Disciplines beside the ones they have a natural affinity to), while the Bane is a unique product of the interactions between the different Disciplines. It could very well be that the reason that the vast majority of the clans only have a single unique Discipline is because the Bane required to balance that is so severe, that it will not allow the Clan to even exist (like how severe is the Bane of the Dukhan, the only canon Clan with two unique Disciplines). At any case, we can clearly see that the creation of a Clan is basically the product of two opposing forces- the Disciplines which try tom embody themselves within the Clan, and the Bane which tries to segregate them.

    And how it is all realated to the subject of supernatural afflicitions?

    Like I said- the Bane is the force which defines the Clan, while the Disciplines describe the Clan's properties. And here is the thing- the more similar are the vampires of the same Clan are to one another, the "interactions" between them should be more favorable, stabilizaing the whole system (a.k.a, the Clan). And while the Disicplines drive towards mixing all of the Clans together, the Bane tries to seperate them- but overall, everything should remain in an equilibrium. However, that's true only if the Clan is the true, most stable state of the system. What if, however, the Clan is stabilized mostly due to the Disciplines? In that case, we are talking about an "entropic stabilization" (the subject of my research which makes my life so damn difficult right now), which means that how well the system is stabilized depends on the temperature. Now, I'm not going to try and describe what is the temperature of a Vampire based system, but all we should care about is that if all of that is true, and that the thing which gives the vampires their identity mostly relays on the Discipline spread and less on the Bane, than in certain conditions it is possible to fall from the so called "metastable state" to the true "ground state" of the system- which is a much more powerful Bane. And once the process becomes spontanous, it releases energy, which propogates (infects?) the other nearby systems, sending them also into their ground state and so one and so on.

    And what could represent the ground state better than a Bane which is far more severe and extreme than the original one?

    So yeah, here is the conclusion of this post- those supernatural diseases are basically what happens when a vampire returns to a more stable, more primal, more true form of their Bane. It is, basically, the true form of the said Clan's vampirism, one which does not only embodies the Disciplines but also express the Bane with all of its terrifying glory. That's a bit ironic, as in general diseases are the products of the body have its entropy increased due to some factor, while for vampires, it seems that those afflictions are the products of the entropy being decreased- which, strangely, fits the overall theme of the game. The Banes, in that case, are too "living", emergent entities, which try to express themselves better by either having more vampires of the same clan, or by transforming a cvertain vampire into a better representative of the said Clan (which is the result of having a more powerful Bane). That concept also goes togetehr with the idea of Elder Banes from 1000 Years of Night- as the vampires reach a state which better represents their "true nature".

    In short, Banes are alive, Banes and Disciplines both describe what a Clan is, dead things get sick by what makes living things healthy and becoming a monster is the true meaning of vampirism. Ah- it seems I used way too much wordcount in order to describe things which we already knew. The only thing left is to think what could the "true vampire form" of the rest of the Clans be- would the Mekhet become occulted and riddles with curses? Would the Deva become addictived to everything and everyone? Would the Gangrel be reduced into howling animals? And what about the more exotic clans, such as the Akhud and the Julii?

    More about it in a next post, probably.

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    "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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  • #2
    Oh wow. This is interesting and really understandable. Do you think I should buy the 2e clanbooks on STV?

    “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her.


    • #3
      I certainly would reccomend buying those books, as they are really good for both players and storytellers.

      Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

      "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

      I now blog in here


      • #4
        Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        In short, Banes are alive, Banes and Disciplines both describe what a Clan is, dead things get sick by what makes living things healthy and becoming a monster is the true meaning of vampirism. Ah- it seems I used way too much wordcount in order to describe things which we already knew. The only thing left is to think what could the "true vampire form" of the rest of the Clans be - would the Mekhet become occulted and riddles with curses? Would the Deva become addictived to everything and everyone? Would the Gangrel be reduced into howling animals? And what about the more exotic clans, such as the Akhud and the Julii?
        Very engrossing subject indeed, one that brings to mind a few complications/questions:

        - Do the Hollow truly count as a separate clan or are they simply more basal/primal atavisms of the same type of vampirism as the more modern Mekhet?
        - Could this relate or not to their "true vampire form"?
        - Where do the Jiangshi - night horror & kindred versions - fit or not in this equation?
        - Some of those same questions might be applicable to the Julii and Ventrue, since there are hints everywhere of some of them "converting" into the other for the sake of avoiding the Striges' wrath.
        - In fact, what would be the Julii's bane in the first place, since we have two completely different versions of it, if memory tricks me not?

        Would like to hear your ideas and thoughts on how might those things work within the context of your theory.
        Last edited by Baaldam; 01-12-2021, 09:36 PM.


        • #5
          Once more, an incredibly interesting post !

          I'll focus mostly on the Gangrel here, because they are my favs with Mekhet and your notion that Malkovians and Noctuku are "truer" to the Clan as an entity got me thinking. What would be the equivalent for the Gangrel ? At first I thought the most disturbing element would be a Gangrel whose Beast slumbers, it'd drive them mad probably. But reading you, I realized that a "truer" Gangrel would be a reflection of 2e Belial's Brood.

          The current Brood as Beast who have gained sentience, devoring the Man. Their reflection would thus be a Man who devoured the Beast. And just like with the Brood, the creature would be different from just the Beast or the Man. Enter the Matashunta. Those guys were created by a Hun warlord turned Gangrel and that's pretty much all we know. And I can't believe the idea that a warlord, commander of men and beasts, would be happy with losing his mind to the Beast. No, he has to have tried to control it, to kill it and make its strength his. What if he succeed ? What do a Vampire with no Beast and no Man but something new becomes ? A more primal monster, that's what. No more risk of turning into a draugr, no more risk of losing control entirely, because there is nothing left but the Apex, the Primal Vampire, I suspect. it'd operate a lot like the Brood probably, but also for quite different, huan, pettier goals, perhaps.

          At least that's how i'd envision it.
          Last edited by Ur-Than; 01-13-2021, 12:13 PM.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

            Very engrossing subject indeed, one that brings to mind a few complications/questions:

            - Do the Hollow truly count as a separate clan or are they simply more basal/primal atavisms of the same type of vampirism as the more modern Mekhet?
            - Could this relate or not to their "true vampire form"?

            Well, considering that the Hollow are presented as their own Clan in 2e, I can only work with what I have. However, a relation between a "primitive Clan" and the "infections transformation" both makes sense and sounds interesting. The infection acts more or less as "returning to origin" for the vampire, while the Hollow are already the origin for the Mekhet (which are haunted by a ghost, which is an occult entity bound by banes, which makes sense). So while the Hollow will probably won't be the direct parallel to Malkavia/Noctuku, the Mekhet affliction should indeed bring the victim into a state similar to that of an Hollow. Also, if you were to not consider the Hollow as a Clan, we still have the Pijavicia, which, while having different favored attribute, still has the same exact Discipline spread as the Gangrel.

            - Where do the Jiangshi - night horror & kindred versions - fit or not in this equation?
            Well, the Jiangshi are an anomally among the Kindred as they do not have any favored Discipline- Yossarian has suggested that they may be a form of a Twice Cursed which evolved into a true Claan, probably a com,bination of a Mekhet with a Gangrel or something. At any case, the Jiagnshi are what I like to call a "commoner Clan", as all of their Disciplines are common. Following the logic behind this post, common Disciplines have less interactions between one another than unique Disciplines, which is why most clans have two common Disciplines and one unique. That means that those vampires are "stabilized mostly byb the entropy", and while they have a Bane, its influence upon them is lesser- which means that those kind of vampires actually lack any tendency to develop those afflicitions. In a more metaphysical words, the Jiangshi are immune to developing a suprnatural affliction because they are already in their origin- they are yet to be elevated into a full clan, as they still lack a defining, unique Discipline which would move them towards them into a "true clan"- however, if and when they would gain such a Discipline they would have a disease which would push them back to their origin (which would be similar to their Night Horrors form, probably).

            Some of those same questions might be applicable to the Julii and Ventrue, since there are hints everywhere of some of them "converting" into the other for the sake of avoiding the Striges' wrath.
            Actually, much of this whole mess has started because of this phenomenon- as Dominate clans do have a tendency to fall and become other clans. The idea is that perhaps Dominate is a very "apex" Discipline, and probably the least entropic among them, as it does not favor having many clans like the others. At any case, the conversion between clans is an entropic process, where the Bane of the clan and the common Disciplines are being replaced in order to convert to another clan. Such conversion, however, does not seem to be spontanous (that is, happening on its own), and would either require "increasing the temperature" or investing energy actively in order to do so. Some conversion may be easier than the others, of course. In the term of afflicitions, transforming from one clan to another would change your Bane, which should make you immune to the original Curse... like how the Julii transformed into the Ventrue. In a way, the strix ARE the Julii's "Malkavia"- which shows that a Bane could predate the Clan itself- and worse, that it could evolve and become the Bane of all vampires.

            - In fact, what would be the Julii's bane in the first place, since we have two completely different versions of it, if memory tricks me not?
            As we are talking about 2e, their revised Bane is in 1000 Years of Night (IIRC). We are going to assume that in this edition, their Bane and Disicpline spread were always the ones they are said to have, which means that getting possessed by etheral entities is basically what haunts them since their very creation. It would probably mean that whatever affliction they would specifically have, it would be based around them becoming hollowed vessels for the Things Outside, turning them into delphic oracles for spirits, ghosts, angels, the strixs and whatever other things which lurk beyond the fire, waiting to crawl into the workld of Flesh.

            Hope that it helped!

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            "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

            I now blog in here


            • #7
              Ok, so some musing about the different potential afflictions-

              Like I mentioned earlier, those different curses seems to be what I call as "vampiric atavism" or "return to origin". The curses drive the Clan back to its original, pre-Kindred state, where they are mostly monsterous dead things. We have also mentioned that we may indeed have a number of examples for such creatures- like the Hollow form of the Mekhet, the Pijavicia for the Gangrel and the Ghuls from Wicked Dead to the Deva (which are both come from the Middle East, are related to Vice in some form, and share the same Discipline spread more or less). On the other hand, we have the afflictions of the other two main Clans- Malkavia for the Ventrue and the Noctuku strain for the Nosferatu. In that case, what would be the types of curses which could plague the rest of the clans?

              Well, for the Mekhet I imagine it would certainly be something in the form of the Hollow, yet without beccoming Hollow. Perhaps instead of being haunted by your own ghost, the Mekhet becomes more and more ghost-like. They start gathering banes and having less presence in the world around them. People start forgetting that they exist. They start forgetting that they exist. Instead, they become focused around their touchstones, haunting with passion and dread. As they lose their touchstones, they too forget another thing which they once cared about, becoming even more obssessive and single minded. Eventually, when all of their touchstones are gone, they can't remember anything, and no one rememnbers them. They practically vanish, becoming lost in the place between places. Maybe, like ghosts, they fall into the depths of the Underworld. Maybe they are removed from reality all together, without anyone remembering their name. Maybe they just wander, lost, walking among us and can't recognize anyone and anything.... maybe beside those who use Obfuscate, who too become too close to the place between places. Maybe those lost Mekhet are the Nowhere Men, who simply forgot so much about themselves that they became something else. It could also utulize Ayana's special Mekhet Bane, which indeed makes her more and more ghost like.

              For the Gangrel, the idea of Ur Than as "the Man devouring the Beast" could be interesting- the idea that the Beast of the Gangrel is actually the thing which governs and maintains their shape. Without it, the Gangrel starts losing control over their own form, becoming mutative and fluid- especially when they fall into frenzy. Eventually, they could even start absorbing other people- or perhaps manifesting them from the blood that they take. Every time that they drink someone to death in their frenzy, limbs, faces and other organs start sprouting from their body, an eternal reminder of all of the life they took. They become everything, everything becomes them, and all that is left is the maddening amalgam of stolen lives screaming in terror.

              Now for the Daeva, the curse needs to be something.. addictive. The Daeva should fall into debauchery, and become addicted to vice. Perhaps their own sins start to become living and thinking entities, things which want more, yearn for more, and slowly drive them to embody themselves within others. The Daeva needs to live in their people, like a devil gods they are. Heck, we could even go all way with this concept and make the En from a Bloodline into such an affliction- in that case, the En is a syndrome- it is the voices of hell which whisper in the mind of the Daeva, growing from their own sins as the Alu become more and more manifested. Eventually, the Alu, the Daeva's Vice Incarnated, becomes the embodiment of all evil- a moral corruption of lust and pride, wrath and greed, gluttony and sloth and envy. The Daeva becomes possessed by their own addictions, which grant them terrible powers in order to propogate their own moral degradation.

              Now, that's it for the greater clans- what about the lesser ones?

              Like I said, the Jiangshi are still an evolving Clan- while they have their own Bane, they lack a defining Discipline, making them practically immune to such supernatural afflicitions. They are just too close to their origin, and only as they'll start drifitng away and become more Kindred, they'll be able to revert back to their older, monsterous state.

              For the Julii, like I mentioned, it could be really cool iof the strix are basically the curse of the Julii- after all, like the rest of those afflictions, it reminds them how they should act as monsters, tries to make them more and more primal and atavistic, and it holds a special enmity towards them. Perhaps every time that a Clan is being lost, their own Bane becomes incarnated as a type of strix (or other shadow demons), sent ravaging into the space between worlds. At any case, the idea of the Julii becoming more and more hollow and empty so they serve as revenant monsters which serve as the plaything of the things beyond sounds very appropriate for the Julii in this edition, especially as it turns the same proclaimed Lords into vessels and slaves.

              The Akhud are bound by blood, and so it makes sense that those blood bonds will be their curse. Maybe the afflicition travels through those bonds, spreading together with the ties that the Akhud holds towards the world. Shaddad, as the sleeping demon in their blood, could make a good candidate for the origin of that curse, if not serving as the curse itself. It would probably turn them into tools of murderer- creatures meant only to destroy and kill everything around them, and instead of being unable to kill those who are considered their family they would instead be forced to kill everything which stands against their ideology. Zeal is infectious, after all, and slowly their mind will be devoured by the endless need to punish, avenge and kill, kill, kill.

              The Dukhan are, honestly, in an awkward place where the little information about their origin makes them sounds like a Bloodline and the fact that they have two different unique Disciplines perhaps emphasis that they are indeed an offshoot of a bloodline who is still adapting to its own status. At any case, there Bane is very severe, and they may too be still "too close to origin" at the point they were presented in order to give an actual such disease.

              The Mikahili still lack a full writeup for their Discipline, but we more or less know what it is meant to do, and we also have the remains of it in the Amirani. At any case, the Mikahili's curse is that they are bound by sleep, so I guess that their curse should make them even less movable, practically incarnating them into the world around them- or maybe consume their Vitae so fast that they will be like revenants. maybe what killed this Clan was basically their own afflicition, like how it happened to the Julii- the curse of the Mikhaili accelerated their Vitae consumption, eventually turning them upon themselves and slowly thinned their blood until revenants were the only thing left behind. That may explain how revenants could gain their own special Discipline which is related to Bereschligost- as those Mikhaili which fel victim to their curse were broken so much that they are indistinguishable from revenants, who are too consumed by hunger.

              Talking abou the Mikahili, their closest living relative (the Amari) have survived by becoming more Gangrel like, as it seems (again, vampire history is weird). The Bane of the Amari is their hate towards light, which could slowly drive them into a state even worse than most vampires. Perhaps their affliction would slowly blind them, making them ever more sensitive to heat and light, forcing them to live in the coldest reaches and deep below the ground, where they'll slowly mutate to fit their surroundings. Their connection to the world could also fit it- for the more that the vampire becomes sensitive to the world of light, they are less willing to leave their chosen haven, until they eventually become one with their chosen place, physically becoming bound to it. In a way, taking the earlier Mikhaili concept and fitting it to them- which makes sense.

              Now, the Bekkak are interesting because they very well be a Clan which was already cursed to the bits- after all, it was heavily hinted that they originally had Dominate as their Discipline, but after a fateful meeting with one of the Arisen and the special hex that Dominate likes to bring upon the ones embodying it, they were consumed by time and entropy. In short, once again we are talking about a Clan which was consumed by their curse, and so they probably don't need a new one.

              The Hyptaians also feel like one Clan still too close to their origin in order to become Cursed, but we can probably imagine that as the products of Vitae and Pyros, the result of their afflicition would be very Flux inspired. Perhaps they would become Pandoran like creatures, or have their own blood turning against them, trying to devour them from the inside or something like that. at any case, they may require some further evolution beforehand.

              The Nhang are also still very, very close to their origin- while the bargain with the strix allowed them to evolve a bit, they are still too atavistic in order to fall victims to those curses discussed in this thread. The same is also true for the Penanggalen, the Lami and the Empusa, even though those three, while vampiric, are still way too different to be even count as a Kindred (as they lack their 3 Discipline spread an a well defined Curse). The Cihuateteo and the Formosae, while closer to the Kindred, are more or less in the same situation as the Nhang, and of those three the Formosae are the most likely to actually develop such a affliction- perhaps some kind of emotional disorder, probably depression of some kind that slowly consumes their will just like they drain the will of others.

              As for the Grettir, while we don't have an official version of them Strange Shades does give us one- even though I don't totally agree with the Discipline spread. I mean, I get why they have Protean, but there are way too many clans with Protean already and way not enough Clans with Auspex, and their Discipline spread does not really support the way that the Clan became assimilated into the Mekhet (they only share Celerity. So personally, I would replace Protean with Auspex- but this too is not that relevant for this discussion. Instead, we can use their Bane, which makes them suffer from their own blood turning against them. Perhaps their affliciton would be something in the style of the Tzimisce Vissictude, where their blood mutation reaches out to other people, not only transforming them but also attacking those around them and making anyone around them into a corrupted horror. Or that we could use the Strange Shadoes Bane as the Curse and my own homebrew Bane as the Clan Bane (shameless promotion :P)

              And finally, one thing which should be noted is the Nereids from Spilled Blood- those horrors are basically a supernatural disease which inflicts, among others, a Clane Bane which override the previouse ones. That makes the Nereids ionto either the remains of a lost Clan wherte, after the curse consuming the whole Clan, it mutated into being able to inflict other Clans as well, or maybe the parallel of a "Clanless Discipline", where a Living Bane attached itself to others in order to feed upon those vampires, like those rare Disciplines which don;t have an associated Clan. Whatever the case, it shows that just like Disciplines, Banes also try to procreate and make more of their kind- and that by breaking free from their own Clan or Bloodline, they could easily becomne horrors which threaten the whole world. Who knows what kind of terrors wait for us on the day that Malkavia would evolve into that form.

              Who knows? maybe it already did.

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