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Amari/Mikhaili Reconciliation Thread [Thoughts/Brainstorming]

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  • #16
    So you wanted a "Grand Proto Gangrel Clan" theory? Well, let's put it to a test.

    We all know that if Clans are related to one another, the chances are that they all share the same basic properties- in our case, it would be their Discipline Spread and Favored Attributes (as technically a Bane, but the Bane is what differs one Clan from another, so we don't need to count something which would always be different). As such, we can evaluate the "Redundancy Level" of a Clan (or R.E) as compared to other Clans using those traits. For this examination, I am going to assign a value of 1 for a Favored Attribute, 2 for a Common Discipline and 3 for a Unique Discipline- so if we were to compare two Clans to each other and ask how similar they are, then we expect that their R.E would be higher than two Clans which are very different from one another. As most of the Clans have only one Unique Discipline, the general maximal value for an R.E is 9 (which is the R.E between Hollow Mekhet and Mekhet). For this analysis, we are going to include all of the 2e Clans, as well as the Clan Grettir version from Strange Shades, the Formosae from Wicked Dead and a version of the Bekaak which have Dominate instead of Vitate (whichwas said by Yossarian to be their original Discipline before the whole "mummy incident"). We are, however, going to ignore the rest of the Wicked Dead, as from what I can see they don't really have a "three Disciplines two Attributes structure) and the Betrayed (which are a unique case and would increase the workload for this analysis far more than it make sense). As the general maximal R.E is 9, the averaged R.E should be around 4~5, and as such we are going to define R.E=4 as the threshold for measuring association between Clans, and treat it as "potential common ancestor yet no direct link". On the other hand, if we see a R.E which is 6 or higher, than we are probably talking about immediate relatives. It should also be noted that I care less about linearity in Clan evolution, as I don't think that occult evolution works in the same way as regular evolution, allowing the existence of non-linear divergence (which is a thing, considering the non linearity of time we see in Mage, Demon and Mummy- so yeah, no reason for Vampire to not use the same concept).

    So, what did we discover from this analysis?

    A few things, actually.

    The first and most immediate thing we notice is that there definitely was a Proto Gangrel Clan. Clan Gangrel has a Level of Association (LoA, that is the number of Clans with an R.E >= 4) of 7. Among within that LoA, 5 Clans have an R.E of above 4- which makes them a very likely candidates. Clan Ventrue is found in this list, even though it is one of the R.E = 4 Clans. Not only that, examining the Clans which contribute to the LoA, we see that Ventrue has LoA=6, Amari LoA=6, Dukahn LoA=6, Hypatian LoA=4, Mikhaili LoA=6, Nhang LoA=5 and Pijavicia LoA=7. So all of the Clans which have a minimal R.E or above also have a very high LoA- and if we were to examine the actual content of those Clans, we are also going to see a very high level of cohesivity- that is, most of those with high LoA which are similar to Gangrel are also very similar to one another.

    So in short, we gain that we have a lot of Clans which are very similar to one another, which means that those Clans are very likely to be descendent from a common ancestor- which support the whole Proto Gangrel Clan theory. Anything else we can learn?

    Of course! It's not over yet!

    The two least similar Clans to Gangrel which still pass the threshold are Dukhan and Ventrue- which kinda makes sense? I mean, the Ventrue may indeed have some stronger connection with other Dominate Clans, and the Dukhan are said to come from the Mekhet. Examining them, we can see that Ventrue allows us to connect to the Proto Gangrel Clan to the Julii and the Bekaak, while the Dukhan gives us a link to the Mekhet. The Julii themselves have a low LoA (2), which means that their only connections to the wider vampire evolution tree is through the Ventrue, which are related to the Gangrel- so we can now see that the Julii could indeed be also descendent from the Proto Gangrel Clan. If anything, it is not that the Ventrue are the remains of the Julii- instead, the Julii seems to be younger than the Ventrue, who in turn come from the Proto Gangrel Clan (to some level, there was probably another ancestor in the middle which was lost in the process). From the Mekhet's point of view, only the Dukhan relate them to the Proto Gangrel Clan, yet we should take into account that the Dukhan do not exactly follow the pattern by having two Unique Disciplines, which could mean that their true R.E to the Gangrel should be lower, which puts the relation between the Mekhet and the Proto Gangrel into question- even though the Dukhan are indeed very cohesive in relation to other Proto Gangrel Clans.

    Whether the Mekhet are related to the Proto Gangrel or not, they are not without relatives of their own- namely the Akhud (R.E of 5) and more importantly, the Jiang Shi. The Jiang Shi, from their end, have a LoA of 5, and relate the Mekhet family to the Bekaak, who are in turn related to the Ventrue and Julii (that is, in their original version, not their modern version). That gives yet another link between the Proto Gangrel Clan and the Mekhet, but it is also a very weak one- so yeah, while again it is possible, it is far more likely that it is a product of a convergent evolution and not a common origin. More than that, it should be noted that the only two links of the Mekhet to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the two exception Clans- Dukhan and Jiang Shi, which further weakens the connection between the two families, making the only verified relative the Akhud. The Jiang Shi, however, seem to be far more related to the Mekhet familt than the Dukhan (which are far closer to the Proto Gangrel Clan), which leads me to think that the Jian Shi are also relatives of the Mekhet, either being descendent from them or the other way around.

    A Clan with even weaker connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the Daeva- their LoA is 2, and their only two known relatives are Grettir and Formosae with R.E of 4- so they may be related, but if so there is a distance between the generations, with a number of lost Clans in the middle. Both the Grettir and the Formosae, however, relate to the Dave to the Proto Gangrel Clan, as Grettir have the Nhang as its other only relative (even though it is still only a R.E of 4), while Formosae have relations to the Amari and Mikhaili (again, R.E of 4). So like in the case for the Mekhet, we see some weak connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan, but I am wary of establishing that the Deva are related to that Clan, as we are talking about weak and non cohesive correlations between those different Clans, so the probability is that even if the Formosae or the Grettir are a part of the Proto Gangrel Clan, then it is far more likely that they are not actually relatives of the Deva. Again, further analysis is required to make such claims.

    Now, considering all of that, you may ask yourself where are the Nosferatu in this whole mess? What connections do they have to the wide Kindred family?

    Here is the thing- they don't have any.

    Seriously- the Nosferatu have a LoA of 0- none of the other clans has a R.E of 4 or above with the Haunts. The Lonely Clan is, indeed, lonely- which would make you wonder why are the Nosferatu without any existing relatives? Were they all extinct, destroyed by other Clans? Are the Nosfeartu the only survivors of some ancient purge between their Proto Clan and the Proto Gangrel? Or is it the other way around- necessity drives change. Could it be that the Nosferatu are just so efficient, that their Blood has no need to evolve? Could the Nosferatu actually be the most pure representation of vampirism, that they have no need to evolve? That may be the reason why the Nosfeartu are the only ones who manage to build stable societies- they are just the best at being vampires. They have reached the peak of evolution, which a very convenient niche and no real competitors. The Nosferatu have won- and the other Clans just can get that those twisted monsters are simply better than them at being vampires.

    Or that there is something which kills Nosferatu like Clans, and that the Haunts are simply better at hiding from it than their dead kin. Also a possibility.


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    • #17
      I'd imagine some kindred scholars might say the Nosferatu are the cockroaches of vampiric evolution for their consistency and hardiness.

      Also, there's the matter of the extinct Xolotl clan of precolumbian mexico, that might have been Nosferatu or something even more atrocious and remain a mystery still.

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      • #18
        I am aware of the Xolotl, yet as we don't have any official information about them I can't include them- they may be only superficially similar (like the Hypatian) or too similar (like Mekhet and their Hollow). At any case, the only thing we do know on them is that they are dead, which brings back the question of "why did the Nosferatu survived where their kin died?"


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        "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LostLight View Post
          Whether the Mekhet are related to the Proto Gangrel or not, they are not without relatives of their own- namely the Akhud (R.E of 5) and more importantly, the Jiang Shi. The Jiang Shi, from their end, have a LoA of 5, and relate the Mekhet family to the Bekaak, who are in turn related to the Ventrue and Julii (that is, in their original version, not their modern version). That gives yet another link between the Proto Gangrel Clan and the Mekhet, but it is also a very weak one- so yeah, while again it is possible, it is far more likely that it is a product of a convergent evolution and not a common origin. More than that, it should be noted that the only two links of the Mekhet to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the two exception Clans- Dukhan and Jiang Shi, which further weakens the connection between the two families, making the only verified relative the Akhud. The Jiang Shi, however, seem to be far more related to the Mekhet familt than the Dukhan (which are far closer to the Proto Gangrel Clan), which leads me to think that the Jian Shi are also relatives of the Mekhet, either being descendent from them or the other way around.

          A Clan with even weaker connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the Daeva- their LoA is 2, and their only two known relatives are Grettir and Formosae with R.E of 4- so they may be related, but if so there is a distance between the generations, with a number of lost Clans in the middle. Both the Grettir and the Formosae, however, relate to the Dave to the Proto Gangrel Clan, as Grettir have the Nhang as its other only relative (even though it is still only a R.E of 4), while Formosae have relations to the Amari and Mikhaili (again, R.E of 4). So like in the case for the Mekhet, we see some weak connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan, but I am wary of establishing that the Deva are related to that Clan, as we are talking about weak and non cohesive correlations between those different Clans, so the probability is that even if the Formosae or the Grettir are a part of the Proto Gangrel Clan, then it is far more likely that they are not actually relatives of the Deva. Again, further analysis is required to make such claims.
          You mention the Grettir but we don't have either Discipline spread or favoured Attributes unless you're going by an unofficial update somewhere. What's known about them is that Norvegi, a Mekhet Bloodline claims they used to be the Clan called Grettir.
          That part is actually strikingly similar to the Mikhaili. An insular Clan in the North that lost an inherent part of the Kindred nature (fangs vs successful Embraces) allegedly due to breeding practices, and are connected to a Discipline (Bloodworking vs Bereschligost/Chary) that manipulates blood/Vitae.
          Unlike the Mikhaili, however, they share no common Discipline with the Gangrel, and Bloodworking is relatively quite expensive. But Bloodworking might be a minor tie to Gangrel since it's a Discipline of physical transformation; possibly an extremely specialised version of Protean. Or it might just be inspired by Protean.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tessie View Post

            You mention the Grettir but we don't have either Discipline spread or favoured Attributes unless you're going by an unofficial update somewhere. What's known about them is that Norvegi, a Mekhet Bloodline claims they used to be the Clan called Grettir.
            Like I said in the post, I've used the Clan Grettir version from Strange Shades, which is unofficial but I always use the material from Yossarin's team for my Vampire theories, just like I use Chris Allens homebrew for my Werewolf theories. You can easily count them out and gain that the Daeva have even less ties to the overall "vampire ecology", as the Clan does not provide any interesting conclusions in this respect. Bloodworking, in their version, is not a Discipline (which is to be expected, considering that most of 2e's Bloodlines do not provide a new Discipline, as we can see from Spilled Blood. Even with Protean, however, their ties to the Gangrel using that version are weak at best, with their closest relative other than Daeva being the Nhang, which are also not very close to them.

            Of course, as it is indeed not an official writeup, you can change their writeup in order to reinforce whatever connection you want for them- I have a writeup for them which ties them closer to the Mekhet, but if you want them to be tied to the Gangrel, and you define Clan similarity using the R.E score, then you just need to assign them Disciplines and Attributes in a way which they'll get at least a score of 4 and above with the Gangrel and perhaps some other Clans to which the Gangrel are related.

            EDIT- also, you could probably get a more "official" Grettir version using the original Bloodline writeup from 1e. According to it, the Clan's common Disciplines are Vigor and Obfuscate, and their unique Discipline should be either Auspex (being absorbed into the Mekhet) or Protean (as Bloodworking is probably a set of Protean devotion in 2e). Their favored Attributes, while unknown, will be taken as the Mekhet's as they are a Mekhet Bloodline. The Bane itself, while needs to be updated, is not required for this analysis. In those conditions, the Auspex version of the Grettir would have a R.E = 7 in reference to the Mekhet and R.E = 0 for the Gangrel, while the Protean based version will have R.E = 4 for the Mekhet and R.E = 3 for the Gangrel. You could play with with favored Attributes to make it lean towards the Gangrel, but by doing so you will detach them from the Mekhet, as the Protean based version is already only weakly related to them, and their Discipline spread does not support having relations to both Clans in the same time. I mean, sure, you could just handwave it if you'll like, but where is the fun in that?

            At any case, using either of those versions, if anything, would tie them better to the Nosferatu than the Gangrel, having a R.E of at least 4 no matter what the Unique Discipline and Attributes are.
            Last edited by LostLight; 02-14-2021, 07:52 AM.


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            "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LostLight View Post
              So you wanted a "Grand Proto Gangrel Clan" theory? Well, let's put it to a test.

              We all know that if Clans are related to one another, the chances are that they all share the same basic properties- in our case, it would be their Discipline Spread and Favored Attributes (as technically a Bane, but the Bane is what differs one Clan from another, so we don't need to count something which would always be different). As such, we can evaluate the "Redundancy Level" of a Clan (or R.E) as compared to other Clans using those traits. For this examination, I am going to assign a value of 1 for a Favored Attribute, 2 for a Common Discipline and 3 for a Unique Discipline- so if we were to compare two Clans to each other and ask how similar they are, then we expect that their R.E would be higher than two Clans which are very different from one another. As most of the Clans have only one Unique Discipline, the general maximal value for an R.E is 9 (which is the R.E between Hollow Mekhet and Mekhet). For this analysis, we are going to include all of the 2e Clans, as well as the Clan Grettir version from Strange Shades, the Formosae from Wicked Dead and a version of the Bekaak which have Dominate instead of Vitate (whichwas said by Yossarian to be their original Discipline before the whole "mummy incident&quot. We are, however, going to ignore the rest of the Wicked Dead, as from what I can see they don't really have a "three Disciplines two Attributes structure) and the Betrayed (which are a unique case and would increase the workload for this analysis far more than it make sense). As the general maximal R.E is 9, the averaged R.E should be around 4~5, and as such we are going to define R.E=4 as the threshold for measuring association between Clans, and treat it as "potential common ancestor yet no direct link". On the other hand, if we see a R.E which is 6 or higher, than we are probably talking about immediate relatives. It should also be noted that I care less about linearity in Clan evolution, as I don't think that occult evolution works in the same way as regular evolution, allowing the existence of non-linear divergence (which is a thing, considering the non linearity of time we see in Mage, Demon and Mummy- so yeah, no reason for Vampire to not use the same concept).

              So, what did we discover from this analysis?

              A few things, actually.

              The first and most immediate thing we notice is that there definitely was a Proto Gangrel Clan. Clan Gangrel has a Level of Association (LoA, that is the number of Clans with an R.E >= 4) of 7. Among within that LoA, 5 Clans have an R.E of above 4- which makes them a very likely candidates. Clan Ventrue is found in this list, even though it is one of the R.E = 4 Clans. Not only that, examining the Clans which contribute to the LoA, we see that Ventrue has LoA=6, Amari LoA=6, Dukahn LoA=6, Hypatian LoA=4, Mikhaili LoA=6, Nhang LoA=5 and Pijavicia LoA=7. So all of the Clans which have a minimal R.E or above also have a very high LoA- and if we were to examine the actual content of those Clans, we are also going to see a very high level of cohesivity- that is, most of those with high LoA which are similar to Gangrel are also very similar to one another.

              So in short, we gain that we have a lot of Clans which are very similar to one another, which means that those Clans are very likely to be descendent from a common ancestor- which support the whole Proto Gangrel Clan theory. Anything else we can learn?

              Of course! It's not over yet!

              The two least similar Clans to Gangrel which still pass the threshold are Dukhan and Ventrue- which kinda makes sense? I mean, the Ventrue may indeed have some stronger connection with other Dominate Clans, and the Dukhan are said to come from the Mekhet. Examining them, we can see that Ventrue allows us to connect to the Proto Gangrel Clan to the Julii and the Bekaak, while the Dukhan gives us a link to the Mekhet. The Julii themselves have a low LoA (2), which means that their only connections to the wider vampire evolution tree is through the Ventrue, which are related to the Gangrel- so we can now see that the Julii could indeed be also descendent from the Proto Gangrel Clan. If anything, it is not that the Ventrue are the remains of the Julii- instead, the Julii seems to be younger than the Ventrue, who in turn come from the Proto Gangrel Clan (to some level, there was probably another ancestor in the middle which was lost in the process). From the Mekhet's point of view, only the Dukhan relate them to the Proto Gangrel Clan, yet we should take into account that the Dukhan do not exactly follow the pattern by having two Unique Disciplines, which could mean that their true R.E to the Gangrel should be lower, which puts the relation between the Mekhet and the Proto Gangrel into question- even though the Dukhan are indeed very cohesive in relation to other Proto Gangrel Clans.

              Whether the Mekhet are related to the Proto Gangrel or not, they are not without relatives of their own- namely the Akhud (R.E of 5) and more importantly, the Jiang Shi. The Jiang Shi, from their end, have a LoA of 5, and relate the Mekhet family to the Bekaak, who are in turn related to the Ventrue and Julii (that is, in their original version, not their modern version). That gives yet another link between the Proto Gangrel Clan and the Mekhet, but it is also a very weak one- so yeah, while again it is possible, it is far more likely that it is a product of a convergent evolution and not a common origin. More than that, it should be noted that the only two links of the Mekhet to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the two exception Clans- Dukhan and Jiang Shi, which further weakens the connection between the two families, making the only verified relative the Akhud. The Jiang Shi, however, seem to be far more related to the Mekhet familt than the Dukhan (which are far closer to the Proto Gangrel Clan), which leads me to think that the Jian Shi are also relatives of the Mekhet, either being descendent from them or the other way around.

              A Clan with even weaker connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan are the Daeva- their LoA is 2, and their only two known relatives are Grettir and Formosae with R.E of 4- so they may be related, but if so there is a distance between the generations, with a number of lost Clans in the middle. Both the Grettir and the Formosae, however, relate to the Dave to the Proto Gangrel Clan, as Grettir have the Nhang as its other only relative (even though it is still only a R.E of 4), while Formosae have relations to the Amari and Mikhaili (again, R.E of 4). So like in the case for the Mekhet, we see some weak connections to the Proto Gangrel Clan, but I am wary of establishing that the Deva are related to that Clan, as we are talking about weak and non cohesive correlations between those different Clans, so the probability is that even if the Formosae or the Grettir are a part of the Proto Gangrel Clan, then it is far more likely that they are not actually relatives of the Deva. Again, further analysis is required to make such claims.

              Now, considering all of that, you may ask yourself where are the Nosferatu in this whole mess? What connections do they have to the wide Kindred family?

              Here is the thing- they don't have any.

              Seriously- the Nosferatu have a LoA of 0- none of the other clans has a R.E of 4 or above with the Haunts. The Lonely Clan is, indeed, lonely- which would make you wonder why are the Nosferatu without any existing relatives? Were they all extinct, destroyed by other Clans? Are the Nosfeartu the only survivors of some ancient purge between their Proto Clan and the Proto Gangrel? Or is it the other way around- necessity drives change. Could it be that the Nosferatu are just so efficient, that their Blood has no need to evolve? Could the Nosferatu actually be the most pure representation of vampirism, that they have no need to evolve? That may be the reason why the Nosfeartu are the only ones who manage to build stable societies- they are just the best at being vampires. They have reached the peak of evolution, which a very convenient niche and no real competitors. The Nosferatu have won- and the other Clans just can get that those twisted monsters are simply better than them at being vampires.

              Or that there is something which kills Nosferatu like Clans, and that the Haunts are simply better at hiding from it than their dead kin. Also a possibility.
              You lost me with all the numbers but it’s really cool that there’s definitely a Proto Gangrel Clan.


              “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her.

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