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  • Seeking Clarity on VTR2 Rules

    Putting things together for a game after reading through all of VTR2.0 and butting my head against some conflicting guidelines (past and present).

    IN VTR2.0

    1. pg. 91; Predatory aura no longer seems to require a frenzy check, ignoring the act of lashing out. Is that the case?

    Related and not... :

    2a. pg. 72; Predatory note addresses the "measure and flavor of one's damnation", talks as if you could identify specific clans at a glance. It doesn't allude to a required frenzy check or other hostilities. Instead it's asking "how will you respond." Is that reinforcing question 1?

    2b. Same material above; reading elsewhere (i cannot cite) i'm left with the impression, and especially if you refer back to older source material, that you can't identify a clan (except maybe nosferatu) that easily. Or can you? If i went back to 1.0, the Malkovian bloodlines talk about hiding as other clans.

    3. pg 73; Cannibalistic note alludes you can tell if someone is an elder or not, hinting at discomfort over their need for kindred blood. Is this tied to the VTR1.0 concept of reactions based on perceived blood potency? I know a lot of this can be discerned by taste.

    4a. pg 91; The cleansing discusses two different forms of use. One to retain wounds, one to make alterations to your form (bit of a parallel, eh?). For the first, to make a wound permanent, costs a willpower. Is that a point or a dot (are we not spending dots anymore?). Are we talking just to stave off torpor or is this something more severe? What if they decide they want to undo this affect, can they?

    4b. The second, more obvious one describes spending willpower to retain more cosmetic alterations. Again, is this a point or a dot? because with 4a, i'm having a hard time grasping the difference.

    5. ghouls; it used to be they cost a dot of willpower, is it now just a point?

    I'm bound to find other things confusing as i make sure i have non-contradictory understandings of their power, but this seems to be a solid start.


  • #2
    2e's Predatory Aura, unlike 1e's Predator's Taint, does not provoke a frenzy check. Vampires no longer risk frenzy just by meeting new vampires. The sensation is unpleasant, but not to the point of compulsion. Vampires feel uncomfortable around other vampires, but they retain their full faculties in their decision-making.

    I don't believe The Predatory Note is meant as a mechanical declaration that you can discern a vampire's clan simply from their aura. The different airs of different vampires is a finer thing from flavor details, not mechanically announced. The Storyteller might say things about sweat and fever in the presence of a Gangrel, but that doesn't mean you ask the Storyteller what clan they are and the Storyteller tells you.

    The Cannibalistic Note is not saying you can tell if someone is an elder or not, it is making a point about paranoia. "How old do they have to be? How should you know? They don't wear pins."

    The cost to retain a wound through the Cleansing is a temporary Willpower point. The reasons to do this are usually aesthetic or subjective, but in addition to risking torpor if you don't have enough Vitae to heal your wounds and still rise, you might hypothetically be low on Vitae and anticipate needing it for other things the next night more than you need to heal. I would allow a vampire to undo this effect with another Willpower point. The wound is effectively being integrated into your static Cleansing image of how you rise each night, so you alter your Cleansing image the same way (and then spend the usual Vitae to heal).

    Cosmetic marks also cost a temporary Willpower point to integrate. The reasons to do this, again, are aesthetic: without doing this, you rise every night with your body in the image of how you appeared at the time of the Embrace. Change your hairstyle and rise the next night with your old hair. Get a tattoo and rise the next night without it. Want to actually keep the tattoo? Spend Willpower and integrate it into your rising image.

    Investing a ghoul costs a temporary point of Willpower. Nothing in the Vampire 2e corebook spends a permanent dot of Willpower, though an experience cost to buy it back up is specified in case you bring in effects from supplement books or other gamelines that do so. (If this leaves you wondering about the Embrace: the Embrace now costs Humanity.)

    (On a check of the First Edition book, actually investing a ghoul never cost a permanent dot of Willpower. Just a temporary point. The Embrace did cost a permanent dot of Willpower in First Edition, though.)

    Last edited by Stupid Loserman; 02-10-2021, 07:36 PM.

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    • #3
      Stupid Loserman ; Am i mistaken here or is Auspex via 2.0 Scary powerful? My players didn't use scrying much in mage, but it seems to me by Auspex 3, you can find out pretty much anything you want so long as the rolls are good. I'm curious on your thoughts/experience.

      I've got one player with it, and it looks like it'll be pretty crucial in chasing down the location of an off-the-grid threat.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by viridian sun View Post
        Stupid Loserman ; Am i mistaken here or is Auspex via 2.0 Scary powerful? My players didn't use scrying much in mage, but it seems to me by Auspex 3, you can find out pretty much anything you want so long as the rolls are good. I'm curious on your thoughts/experience.

        I've got one player with it, and it looks like it'll be pretty crucial in chasing down the location of an off-the-grid threat.
        Honestly it's good but not overpowered. One of the big problems with Auspex is that you can only interact with things that are present, so you can't just use it to ping the location of characters or objects. If you look at the sample questions and answers, the idea is clearly that strong emotions leave traces on objects and places and these are the kinds of things you can ask about. So you can probably get a bit of a vision of what happened at a murder scene, but you can't ask "where does the murderer live/where are they now?"

        Furthermore, Auspex is not mind reading. You can use Auspex on someone to get a sense about what they want in general terms, but Auspex isn't going to tell you that the Sheriff plans to assassinate the Prince when they go for a private meeting later, just that they harbor some ill will towards to Prince.

        And don't forget that every use of Auspex after the first in a scene costs Vitae. If you want to ask a bunch of questions it's going to cost you a lot of Vitae.

        One of my houserules is that Auspex isn't subtle. It's supposed to take an instant action, so while a Vampire doesn't automatically know they're being read, they can notice the creepy Mekhet in the corner is staring at them more intently than usual and put two and two together.

        I've got a player in my game who has both Auspex and the Cruac ritual Pool of Forbidden Truths and honestly that ritual probably is broken, but Auspex is about on par with the other Clan-specific disciplines

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aurumae View Post

          Honestly it's good but not overpowered. One of the big problems with Auspex is that you can only interact with things that are present, so you can't just use it to ping the location of characters or objects. If you look at the sample questions and answers, the idea is clearly that strong emotions leave traces on objects and places and these are the kinds of things you can ask about. So you can probably get a bit of a vision of what happened at a murder scene, but you can't ask "where does the murderer live/where are they now?"

          Furthermore, Auspex is not mind reading. You can use Auspex on someone to get a sense about what they want in general terms, but Auspex isn't going to tell you that the Sheriff plans to assassinate the Prince when they go for a private meeting later, just that they harbor some ill will towards to Prince.

          And don't forget that every use of Auspex after the first in a scene costs Vitae. If you want to ask a bunch of questions it's going to cost you a lot of Vitae.

          One of my houserules is that Auspex isn't subtle. It's supposed to take an instant action, so while a Vampire doesn't automatically know they're being read, they can notice the creepy Mekhet in the corner is staring at them more intently than usual and put two and two together.

          I've got a player in my game who has both Auspex and the Cruac ritual Pool of Forbidden Truths and honestly that ritual probably is broken, but Auspex is about on par with the other Clan-specific disciplines
          By raw, Auspex does answer secrets and weakness, thus, by raw, asking: where is his heaven, or, did he killed the Prince, or, does he want to kill the Prince, are all lecit.
          Master can play by giving an answer by using criptic visions and sensorial hints, non the less the answer should be understandable.
          Then the question can mislead the player: does he want to kill the Prince? Peraphs yes, as many other, which doesn't mean he will do.

          By the way, lay open the mind is litteraly mind reading though.

          I agree that Auspex is a bit broken actually, with no well defined limits, and unless you do not houserule it, it's subtle as hell, as also clearly stated into the book itself. Only way to spot it would be another Auspex asking who Is using or has used Auspex in this area.

          Auspex is tricky to handle for a Master both if a player has it or a NPC.

          The first case we discussed, the latter, why the prince, Sheriff, whoever, shouldn't scan Players mind at the very first occasion, uncoverig their plans....
          Last edited by Marcus; 02-18-2021, 05:47 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Marcus View Post
            By raw, Auspex does answer secrets and weakness, thus, by raw, asking: where is his heaven, or, did he killed the Prince, or, does he want to kill the Prince, are all lecit.
            I assume you're referring to Auspex 2. The point I was making is that you can't just use Auspex to find where someone is (who isn't present). So if you're looking at a murder scene there's no way to locate the murderer via Auspex, although you might be able to get an idea of what they look like and maybe some other clues that will help you to track them down via Auspex 3. This is in contrast to an ability like Pool of Forbidden Truths that can target anyone or anything whether present or not.

            And although you could use Auspex 2 on a character who is present to ask "where is this character's Haven" you aren't going to get a straight answer. You might get a sudden vision of a building with no real context as to where that building is, or you might get the smell of saltwater and hear the rumble of a train and be able to figure out the rough location from that. An exceptional success might give you all three of these. Even RAW Auspex is quite clear that it suggests the information rather than imparting it directly and clearly to the character. Both Auspex 1 and 2 stipulate "The Storyteller’s answer should include the imagery conjured by the Beast to convey the answer."

            Originally posted by Marcus View Post
            By the way, lay open the mind is litteraly mind reading though.
            ​True, but it's contested, unlike Auspex 1-3, and viridian sun was specifically asking about abilities up to Auspex 3.

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            • #7
              Aurumae above states you can't actually pinpoint someone with it, say, where is this objects owner now? I dont see anything in the book firmly preventing that.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by viridian sun View Post
                Aurumae above states you can't actually pinpoint someone with it, say, where is this objects owner now? I dont see anything in the book firmly preventing that.
                It's a psychometry power, not clairvoyance. Questions about the object concern it and its history.


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by viridian sun View Post
                  Aurumae above states you can't actually pinpoint someone with it, say, where is this objects owner now? I dont see anything in the book firmly preventing that.
                  Auspex 3 allows you to ask questions about an object/location and its history. "Where is this object's owner" is not a question about the object or its history. It's a question about the object's owner.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #10
                    Redacting remark. I see my mistake.
                    Last edited by viridian sun; 02-18-2021, 07:33 PM. Reason: I see my mistake.

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                    • #11
                      Each level answers specific types of question about specific targets. People often miss this somehow, so that's one limitation. The other is when trying to use Auspex as evidence. Vampires lie. There is no reason for other vampires to believe your vampire when you say "The Sheriff is going to assassinate the Prince! Auspex told me so!" Even if the Prince is later assassinated, why wouldn't they assume you did it and tried to implicate the Sheriff to cover for yourself? If a second vampire with Auspex agrees, maybe you're in allegiance? Vampires lie. Vampires know this, and so vampires have no reason to believe each other.

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                      • #12
                        The intended hook, and maybe i'm being too out of the box here, is they're dealing with what looks like a masquerade breach, which is actually tied to not a strix (new players) but a claimed ghost. they were going to track down some crime scenes and whatever else... but it's occurred to me, before the reveal, i can use blood scent and just make a trail of sorts.

                        The killer was going to "perish" with them none the wiser, one might accidentally pick up the knife and walk it out of the scene (anchored), and then explore lore, figure out how to get rid of the ghost, which is set in motion by a larger threat. I was getting too hung up on auspex to find him. blood scent will work fine.

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