Threnodies on 2e

[Baaldam]

Was the concept of threnodies updated, expanded or least further fleshed out in 2e or even some other 1e book beside Blood Sorcery?

My overall impression seems to be that it was thrown under a rug and forgotten as a thing by most writers, left as a theoretical option in the sense that it has not actively "revoked",
like the 2e rules for Cruac & Theban Sorcery essentially do for Blood Sorcery's system, but still largely ignored through lack of support or even citation.

At least that is how i see it so far. If someone can point evidence on the contrary or any new systems that might touch or rework on the ideas behind threnodies, i would most gratefuly look into that.

So, any thoughts, comments or stories of your own?

[LostLight]

Well, looking on the books which were published for 2e, we have the Core, Secrets of the Covenants, 1000 Years of Night, Guide to the Night, Half Damned and Spilled Blood. As Threnodies came near 2e, the writers probably had the themes of this edition in mind when designing them, and they were meant to be optional, so putting them in the Core may have felt unnecessary (not to mention wordcount). Secrets of the Covenants was about, well, covenants, so not really the place for Threnodies. Half Damned was about "supporting cast", so again, not the place, and Spilled Blood is about antagonists. So we are left with 1000 Years of Night and Guide to the Night. 1000 of Night may have been the best choice among the two, as Guide to the Night was meant more for the ST and less for player options- but Threnodies are not designed for "elder only", so there's that. And as Threnodies were designed in 1e, you can't really add new ones without updating the older system- and doing such an updating would require wordcount, not to mention that in general it seems that supplements prefer to add new material than update old one, and with the STV being a thing, the mindset may be "if you want to update old material, better do it as STV material". So between Threnodies being relatively new when 2e just came out, the types of supplements we got, wordcount limitations and the preference for new material over updating old one, I am not surprised that it was not updated, not to mention that the writers may have deemed it "easy enough ton convert to 2e without wasting wordcount on it".

Just my two cents on the subject.

[DubiousRuffian]

I haven't seen any reference to Threnodies in the 2e material, but I would love to see them get some use. I really like the idea of a down and dirty hedge magic triggered by a creepy song.

One issue that probably makes implementation difficult was that the concept didn't seem sufficiently distinguished from Cruac and Devotions. I also think the self-harm-as-sacrifice idea could stand to be altered though. Maybe change the sacrifice so it could be harm to anyone, self included? Or go the tragedy route, and have the player determine some personal tragedy that will happen as a result of the ritual.

As for the blood sorcery system, it was basically canonized as an optional system. The corebook mentions that for rituals, you just need to make some minor adjustment. Secrets of the Covenants has a some rituals using the theme system.

[Baaldam]

I haven't seen any reference to Threnodies in the 2e material, but I would love to see them get some use. I really like the idea of a down and dirty hedge magic triggered by a creepy song.

One issue that probably makes implementation difficult was that the concept didn't seem sufficiently distinguished from Cruac and Devotions. I also think the self-harm-as-sacrifice idea could stand to be altered though. Maybe change the sacrifice so it could be harm to anyone, self included? Or go the tragedy route, and have the player determine some personal tragedy that will happen as a result of the ritual.

Pretty sure there was at least one "sacrifice of a loved one" example, since it really stuck in the head when i read that chapter of the book, might check for specific page later.

But i agree that some more fine-tunning and exploration of the idea and how to diferentiate it beyond "discipline rituals" from better known blood magic and devotions. Or maybe take into the confusion wholeheartedtly and dive into it in the last case, who knows.

As for the blood sorcery system, it was basically canonized as an optional system. The corebook mentions that for rituals, you just need to make some minor adjustment. Secrets of the Covenants has a some rituals using the theme system.

Yes, the fact the corebook did make a point of discussing rituals, if only to establish the blood sorcery system as not the base option, makes the matter of other systems also originated in the book but not discussed that much more nebulous.

[falco1029]

Not to self-advertise too strongly, but Vault-wise, Rites of Damnation covers Threnodies as merits that are built using the Theme system (replacing Theme requirements with an appropriate Discipline), and Desecrated Rites covers them as Devotions that let you ritualize other Disciplines/Devotions to add ritual factors, like extended duration or more targets, etc.