Trying to Develop a new Coil of the Dragon.

[Horodrigo]

I'm trying to develop a Coil that allows for reduced experience cost on disciplines and things like that.

That being said, I'm not trying to make the ST eyeroll at some super OP Coil that gives me Disciplines for free, but I would like to try and develop something on this line of thought.

My ideas are as follows:

1: The Kindred to select an out-of-clan disciplines and develop it at 3 exp instead of 4, one extra discipline for every dot in this coil. Cannot choose other clan disciplines until 4th dot.
2: More efficiency in using the disciplines, can expend extra vitae to activate disciplines as if your BP is this coil/2(rounded up) higher.
3: Alleviates the cost of some disciplines, needing to use 1 less vitae(minimum 1). In case of Physical disciplines, each different power still needs 1 vitae.
4: Easy learning of Devotions(-1 exp, minimum 1) and gives bonus equals to Coil dots on Devotion rolls.
5: Allow the learning of Bloodline Disciplines and Devotions, ignoring the pre-requisites of joining the Bloodline.

Scales that give temporary use of disciplines, similar to Blood Alchemy(Spoiling) from the 1st Edition Ordo Dracul book and a second Scale that allows Master in this Coil to abandon his Bloodline.

The objective is to surpass the normal limitations imposed by ones Lineage and to try become a superior Beast mastering all the Disciplines.


Before I begin to write the fluff for those, I would appreciate some help in balancing or suggestions.

[Sith_Happens]

I’m not seeing it. Thinking in terms of how Coils work in-universe, any mad science cocktail to help you learn Dominate would have Ventrue blood as an ingredient at which point just drink the Ventrue blood straight and learn some Voivode if you’re worried about the side effects.

[Satchel]

Yeah, this is… not what Coils are for. You could lean into the old Chrysalis rites and tie a cost break on a certain Discipline to a thematically-resonant Wyrm's Nest, leverage an Unnatural Affinity to get at a clan Discipline sideways, or otherwise twist the vampiric state to let you develop new powers quicker, but if your goal is not to just make a Make All My Disciplines Better Coil then you need to actually not do that.

What universal aspect of the Kindred Condition is this Mystery supposed to be changing? Does it interact with the usual stipulations of learning an uncommon Discipline (or diablerie) at all? Why, besides player-character exceptionalism, is this Coil not something the Defiant have already figured out and kept using into modernity?

[Horodrigo]

What universal aspect of the Kindred Condition is this Mystery supposed to be changing? Does it interact with the usual stipulations of learning an uncommon Discipline (or diablerie) at all? Why, besides player-character exceptionalism, is this Coil not something the Defiant have already figured out and kept using into modernity?

1 - The distinctions between Blood Lineages, searching for a primordial or superior blood where the Kindred can be a master of all powers of the Night.
2 - It experiment and study Vitae from different Kindreds and Bloodlines to learn it's differences to try predict how can the Ultimate Vitae be achieved, believing that by creating a sort of new Clan or Bloodline, without limitations and flaws, the Kindred will shed their other weakness as well. It certainly will set some troubles with some addicts and some diablerists, but such is the price for progress. Most of the studies would come from observing and analyzing, not direct consumption of each others Vitae.
3 - The Ordo is in it's beginings here(XVI Century), so I'm trying to create something that would dispute with the other well know Coils.

[Satchel]

1 - The distinctions between Blood Lineages, searching for a primordial or superior blood where the Kindred can be a master of all powers of the Night.

A Lineage is a line of descent from vampires of a single clan, which give rise to bloodlines (which might eventually become clans themselves, if certain bloodlines' claims are to be believed). Vampirism is mostly only a single thing through the Kindred's shared roots in Humanity — short of banking on vampirism suddenly working in the exact opposite way of how it usually does re: power-at-a-price at the very unknown zenith of combined curses, there's not much to go on, especially given that at "set your curses against each other to lessen them" is at least one description of how the Coils work.

2 - It experiment and study Vitae from different Kindreds and Bloodlines to learn it's differences to try predict how can the Ultimate Vitae be achieved, believing that by creating a sort of new Clan or Bloodline, without limitations and flaws, the Kindred will shed their other weakness as well. It certainly will set some troubles with some addicts and some diablerists, but such is the price for progress, Most of the studies would comes from observing and analyzing, not direct consumption of each others Vitae.

This is sounding a lot more like large-scale Messianic Vampire Eugenics than the sort of thing that actually has a Coil at this stage; you could make a case for it serving as the foundational work for developing a precursor to the Coil of the Voivode. Faking their way to the ultimate Discipline cocktail seems more likely to lean on parasitizing other vampires' powers and the phenomena of colonies than simple academic wait-and-see.

The version of the Ordo Dracul that makes it to modern nights is the one whose R&D is bloody and alienating — unless this Mystery is supposed to die out without producing much in the way of results, it's going to have to be pretty hands-on in its approach to untangling the corruptive and adaptive nature of the vampiric phenomenon (which is a bunch of different things that happen to produce similar outcomes due to working on the same material). That means creating and experimenting on revenants, poking and prodding at new Embraces whose Clan Banes haven't set in yet, vivisecting members of unusual bloodlines, messing with various flavors of ghoul and gargoyle, investigating how vampires react to different supernatural stimulus, and so on, all of which is still more or less just business as usual for the covenant.

The fluff is going to have to come first, I'm afraid. The Coil of the Ascendant enhances the blush of life to help you better resist daysleep, the Coil of the Wyrm lets you enter frenzy to a specified end at will, and the Coil of the Voivode makes the addictive qualities of your Vitae more potent and more specific. What does the first step of the Coil of the Primal Blood do that is interesting and unusual?

[Horodrigo]

That means creating and experimenting on revenants, poking and prodding at new Embraces whose Clan Banes haven't set in yet, vivisecting members of unusual bloodlines, messing with various flavors of ghoul and gargoyle, investigating how vampires react to different supernatural stimulus, and so on, all of which is still more or less just business as usual for the covenant.

Loved this part.

The fluff is going to have to come first, I'm afraid. The Coil of the Ascendant enhances the blush of life to help you better resist daysleep, the Coil of the Wyrm lets you enter frenzy to a specified end at will, and the Coil of the Voivode makes the addictive qualities of your Vitae more potent and more specific. What does the first step of the Coil of the Primal Blood do that is interesting and unusual?

The Coil of the Primal Blood connects the vampire to other Kindred.

I was thinking about this and that is why I asked for help here, this short conversation helped me to mature the idea a little. Maybe the first step can strong the sympathetic connection between the Kindred and all other clans to allow him to eventually develop a way to not only learn other disciplines, but to better use them against other vampires as well.

The alterations to the levels would be as follows:

1: The Kindred develops a Four Times Removed Blood Sympathy towards all other Kindred, at Coil 3 this evolves to Thrice Removed, strangely, this does not work on Cruác and Theban Sorcery. This messes with A Taste of Blood and Auspex uses to dicern the Defiant clan, as results seems to indicate that he is, in fact, a Kindred, but not the specific Clan or Bloodline.
2: Alleviates the WP cost for detecting Blood Sympathy and add this Coild dots on the roll.
3: The blood starts to assume caracteristcs particular to other clans, this allow the buying of exclusive clan merits, at coild 5, this also allows the buying of Bloodline merits.
4: Easy learning of Disciplines, allowing the Kindred to develop every discipline for 3 exp, he still needs a teacher(or blood from another clan) for specific clan disciplines.
5: Allows the learning of Bloodline Disciplines and Devotions, ignoring the pre-requisites of joining the Bloodline.

I would like to achieve the effect of the 5th dot. But all the rest can be modified for balance purposes.

[Stupid Loserman]

I would still warn away from a Coil dot whose effect is, basically "spend experiences here so you don't spend experiences there." It lacks flavor and narrative impact and mostly just exists to front-load expenses in the short term and unbalance in the long term.

You wrote yourself a better idea for what the fourth dot can do, one that has more narrative impact: out-of-clan Disciplines remain at the same experience cost, but no longer require a teacher. The Ventrue samples Protean and Majesty and Nightmare without ever having to risk the Vinculum by tasting another vampire's blood, or even seek their aid to teach.

If exotic clans are in play, you may still require a teacher to learn their Discipline (such as Praestantia or Vitiate), or at least first-hand experience of being targeted by the Discipline's powers in some way. I suggest this mostly because the conceptual space of exotic clan Disciplines is potentially unlimited, and you probably shouldn't be developing every weird potential offshoot of vampirism most licks have never heard of just through one Coil. The Coil would still provide a benefit: no need to taste their blood.

I'd personally apply the same logic to bloodline gifts. If you can expose yourself to a sample to study, then you can learn to reproduce it, but you have to actually go meet these weird vampires. Again: creates story hooks. Now you're jet-settin' through exotic locales finding local weirdos.

[Horodrigo]

I appreciate the help so far. I changed some rules and wrote the first draft of the Coil. I decided that it would be a branch of the Voivode and not a new Mystery. Since english is not my first language, I apologize in advance for the gramatical errors, trying to use fancy words to emphasize things is hard sometimes. After the tweak on the powers, I will make the 2 Scales.

Coil of the Primal Blood

In blood there is power; this is the creed of the Mystery of the Voivode. While some seek to rise above the petty politics and slaveries of the Damned, others study the inherent power in the blood. This Coil is a rammification of Mystery of the Voivode. His practicioners create and experiment on revenants, poking and prodding at new Embraces whose clan Banes haven't set in yet, vivisect members of unusual bloodlines, mess with ghoul and gargoyle anatomy and investigate how vampires react to different supernatural stimulus. The Scales of this Mystery focus on the power of blood.

Distant Cousins •
To understand how the different powers of the blood work, first a Dragon needs to connect better with other Kindred. Attempts to detect blood sympathy (p. 99) no longer cost a point of Willpower and add this Coil rating as bonus die on the roll.

Into the Fold (Variation) ••
A Dragon will not be held down by the blood of this Sire.
She develops blood sympathy (p. 98) towards all Kindred she has tasted the blood, treating her as four times removed.
Her blood also changes so that uses of Auspex, A Taste of Blood (p. 91) or similar methods cannot discern her clan clearly, inducing a Clash of Wills using her dots on this Coil + Blood Potency against Auspex and other supernatural powers, or simply returning a failure in cases of a taste of blood.

A Taste of Familiarity •••
The Dragon's understanding of the blood is above all others and it's binding properties no longer trouble her. The Dragon loses Vitae addiction, if she developed it, this does not prevent her from getting addicted again, but now, the first dose of vitae consumed from another Kindred every night dos not count for purposes of Vitae Addiction and Blood Bonds. Additionally, she adds half her Coil of the Primal Blood rounded up as a bonus to rolls to resist blood bonds.

Blood Brother ••••
The Dragon does not have to limitate herself to the restrictions of their blood. She wants more power, so her blood obeys. The Defiant can purchase merits exclusives to other clans, ignoring the clan pre-requisite. The Dragon still needs to find and study those merits or have tasted the Vitae of someone that has those merits, similar to developing an out-of-clan discipline.

The Blood Unchained •••••
By this point the Dragon already tasted dozens of different bloods and unlocked the potential to go beyond. She can now learn bloodline Disciplines, Devotions and merits, ignoring the pre-requisites of joining the Bloodline. Needing only a taste of the rare bloodline vitae to do so. For bloodline gifts that are awarded for free, if they are a merit, they can be bought as a normal merit, if they are a devotion, they can be bought at 2 exp.

[Sith_Happens]

I don’t see any good reason for Distant Cousins to not stack with the base blood sympathy bonus. I’d also either switch Blood Brothers and A Taste of Familiarity entirely or move “First Vitae’s safe” to Blood Brothers.

[Horodrigo]

I don’t see any good reason for Distant Cousins to not stack with the base blood sympathy bonus. I’d also either switch Blood Brothers and A Taste of Familiarity entirely or move “First Vitae’s safe” to Blood Brothers.

Yeah, I Switched the powers and corrected a few words. Thanks for the feedback.