Bloodline to Clan

[Excess]

There seems to be this idea floating around that Clans could have originated as Bloodlines, but I am not sure how to mechanically represent that or even what the prerequisites are.

Does the number of affinity Disciplines shrink to three or stay at four? Does the exclusive Bloodline Discipline become available to all Kindred? Can it still be joined by those who are already of another Clan?

How does the transition occur anyhow? Population growth? Age? Ruining something?

[Horodrigo]

I think this is an idea for an entire plot.

Some bloodlines activate as soon as you embrace someone(like the Morbus one).
My thoughts about this are as follows:
Giving enough time for a bloodline to spread and it being a common bloodline sought out by many members of the clan, eventually it overthrows the original clan and become a clan itself, losing some discipline along the way, retaining the bloodline discipline and replacing the clan bane by the bloodline bane. Dealings with occult beings like the Strix can also generate a clan, the Dead Juuli have been born this way.

[Excess]

Overthrows original Clan? I wasn't thinking that there would be any such requirements like that. I was thinking that they could branch out and create a greater number of Clans rather than cannibalisticly replace existing Clans.

[Baaldam]

Overthrows original Clan? I wasn't thinking that there would be any such requirements like that. I was thinking that they could branch out and create a greater number of Clans rather than cannibalisticly replace existing Clans.

Or it could be a reverse metamorphosis of sorts, in an attempt to escape the fate of a previous clan - like Macellarius Corbullo of the Julii spawning the bloodline of the same name, of the Ventrue, in a mysteriously unclear method to circumvent the revenge of the Strix, as implied in Fall of the Camarilla.

[LostLight]

My personal guidelines for "Bloodline to Clan evolution" are as follows-

As the Bloodline (the Child) becomes a different Clan from the original (the Sire), it loses one of the four Disciplines. Those Disciplines, as well as its favored attributes, will decide its final fate-

a) if the new Child maintains the same three Disciplines and have the same favored attributes as the Sire, it becomes their "sibling"- such as Hollow Mekhet and regular Mekhet, or the strange Mekhet subtype from Spilled Blood.

b) if the new Child have the same Disciplines yet different attributes, it becomes the Sire's "nephew"- the same state as the Pijavicia and the Gangrel.

c) if the new Child develop the same Discipline spread and attributes as another Clan, they are absorbed into that Clan, becoming their "sibling", and could possibly become a new Bloodline within that new Clan.

d) if the new Child develops the same Discipline spread yet different attributes from another Clan, they become that Clan's "nephew", and could possibly become a new Bloodline within that Clan

e) if the Child develops a different Unique Discipline from its Sire yet maintains the same Common ones, they become that Clan's "cousin"- at this point they are in a mostly stable state, yet bare some resemblance to the Sire, and could be reabsorbed quite easily by either the Sire or another Clan with the same spread, but could still hold their own. Bloodline Discipline will be considered as a Unique Discipline in that respect.

d) if the Child maintains the same Unique Discipline, but have different Common ones, its becomes the "cousin" of a Clan with the same Common Discipline, and they are more likely to be absorbed into that Clan that back to their Sire

e) if the Child have a single Unique Discipline and two Common ones, all of which are different than their Sire, they become their own different Clan, unrelated to their Sire. Absorbing such a Clan would be as difficult as absorbing any other Clan.

f) if the Child have more than one Unique Discipline, they reach a metastable state, in which they'll either lose one of the Unique Disciplines, be absorbed into another Clan as a Bloodline or become a non Kindred vampire

g) if the Child have no Unique Discipline, they reach a metastable state, in which they'll either develop a Unique one, be absorbed into another Clan as a Bloodline or become a non Kindred vampire

Of course, those are only guidelines, and they ignore a lot of the hot mess which is vampire evolution. For a more accurate method to measure the relation between two Clans, I have developed the Redundancy Estimation method (or R.E). In that formalism, if the Child and the Sire have a R.E of 9, they are sibling Clans. R.E of 7 - 8 makes them nephews, and 4 - 6 makes them cousins. R.E below 4 means that the Clans are de facto strangers to one another. Adding a certain level of linearity into requires adding the "Level of Association" (or LoA) which examines how many common relatives each of those Clans have, which allows you to draw a certain "evolutionary chain" in order to map the family tree. Of course, there are still a lot of non linear factor in there, and the R.E needs to be normalized in order to estimate cases like Clans with no Unique Disciplines or with more than one, but it is something. (Also, I personally do not think that vampire evolution works in a linear way, but that's just my view of this)

Did I invented a new formalism to estimate scientifically the relation between different game constructs? Yep. Should I feel ashamed of wasting my time in such a way? Probably. Do I? Nope.

[Guest]

Or it could be a reverse metamorphosis of sorts, in an attempt to escape the fate of a previous clan - like Macellarius Corbullo of the Julii spawning the bloodline of the same name, of the Ventrue, in a mysteriously unclear method to circumvent the revenge of the Strix, as implied in Fall of the Camarilla.

Totally agree with you about the Macellarius. Btw when I did a couple notes on my headcanon version of CoD: Chicago I took Horatio Ballard from the original WoD Chicago by Night and made him a Macellarius.

[Guest]

My personal guidelines for "Bloodline to Clan evolution" are as follows-

As the Bloodline (the Child) becomes a different Clan from the original (the Sire), it loses one of the four Disciplines. Those Disciplines, as well as its favored attributes, will decide its final fate-

a) if the new Child maintains the same three Disciplines and have the same favored attributes as the Sire, it becomes their "sibling"- such as Hollow Mekhet and regular Mekhet, or the strange Mekhet subtype from Spilled Blood.

b) if the new Child have the same Disciplines yet different attributes, it becomes the Sire's "nephew"- the same state as the Pijavicia and the Gangrel.

c) if the new Child develop the same Discipline spread and attributes as another Clan, they are absorbed into that Clan, becoming their "sibling", and could possibly become a new Bloodline within that new Clan.

d) if the new Child develops the same Discipline spread yet different attributes from another Clan, they become that Clan's "nephew", and could possibly become a new Bloodline within that Clan

e) if the Child develops a different Unique Discipline from its Sire yet maintains the same Common ones, they become that Clan's "cousin"- at this point they are in a mostly stable state, yet bare some resemblance to the Sire, and could be reabsorbed quite easily by either the Sire or another Clan with the same spread, but could still hold their own. Bloodline Discipline will be considered as a Unique Discipline in that respect.

d) if the Child maintains the same Unique Discipline, but have different Common ones, its becomes the "cousin" of a Clan with the same Common Discipline, and they are more likely to be absorbed into that Clan that back to their Sire

e) if the Child have a single Unique Discipline and two Common ones, all of which are different than their Sire, they become their own different Clan, unrelated to their Sire. Absorbing such a Clan would be as difficult as absorbing any other Clan.

f) if the Child have more than one Unique Discipline, they reach a metastable state, in which they'll either lose one of the Unique Disciplines, be absorbed into another Clan as a Bloodline or become a non Kindred vampire

g) if the Child have no Unique Discipline, they reach a metastable state, in which they'll either develop a Unique one, be absorbed into another Clan as a Bloodline or become a non Kindred vampire

Of course, those are only guidelines, and they ignore a lot of the hot mess which is vampire evolution. For a more accurate method to measure the relation between two Clans, I have developed thehttp://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/1434756-amari-mikhaili-reconciliation-thread-thoughts-brainstorming?p=1435397#post1435397"] Redundancy Estimation[/URL] method (or R.E). In that formalism, if the Child and the Sire have a R.E of 9, they are sibling Clans. R.E of 7 - 8 makes them nephews, and 4 - 6 makes them cousins. R.E below 4 means that the Clans are de facto strangers to one another. Adding a certain level of linearity into requires adding the "Level of Association" (or LoA) which examines how many common relatives each of those Clans have, which allows you to draw a certain "evolutionary chain" in order to map the family tree. Of course, there are still a lot of non linear factor in there, and the R.E needs to be normalized in order to estimate cases like Clans with no Unique Disciplines or with more than one, but it is something. (Also, I personally do not think that vampire evolution works in a linear way, but that's just my view of this)

Did I invented a new formalism to estimate scientifically the relation between different game constructs? Yep. Should I feel ashamed of wasting my time in such a way? Probably. Do I? Nope.

I don’t exactly understand what a formalism is but it sounds awesome and you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of 😊.

[Excess]

Marcellarius?

[Baaldam]

Totally agree with you about the Macellarius. Btw when I did a couple notes on my headcanon version of CoD: Chicago I took Horatio Ballard from the original WoD Chicago by Night and made him a Macellarius.

Now that's a very fun cross-setting little nod. Much like prince Maxwell himself in its own way, might be said.

Marcellarius?

Macellarius, for a quick reference.

The Rakshasa bloodline, from Bloodlines: the Hidden, might be an interesting read too, for a peculiar take of theirs on the clan-bloodline dynamic with "vanilla" Nosferatu, if memory tricks me not.

[Excess]

That was grotesque.

[Baaldam]

That was grotesque.

Guessing you haven't seen the Formosae in Night Horrors: Wicked Dead.

[Spencer from The Hills]

Maybe childer of kindred who belong to bloodlines very occasionally inherit the bloodline characteristics of their sire but not the clan characteristics. For example, Kyle the baby Kerberos is remarkably calm for a savage, but he can't shift into the ground. That alone doesn't confer to him a special clan identity, but any childer of his are typically more like him than their grandsire and if enough of them survive and spread around the world, kindred stop thinking of them as Gangrel or a mere bloodline. 500 years later, they're associated as much with Ventrue or Daeva as Gangrel, if any other clan.

Ideally, for the sake of this model, bloodlines would also confer attributes, as clans do, so for example, clan Kerberos, might lose stamina for resolve. Not that I've thought of a good attribute pair for this particular bloodline.

Furthermore, I haven't accounted for the implication that clans originate from multiple bloodlines.

[Excess]

Maybe childer of kindred who belong to bloodlines very occasionally inherit the bloodline characteristics of their sire but not the clan characteristics. For example, Kyle the baby Kerberos is remarkably calm for a savage, but he can't shift into the ground. That alone doesn't confer to him a special clan identity, but any childer of his are typically more like him than their grandsire and if enough of them survive and spread around the world, kindred stop thinking of them as Gangrel or a mere bloodline. 500 years later, they're associated as much with Ventrue or Daeva as Gangrel, if any other clan.

Ideally, for the sake of this model, bloodlines would also confer attributes, as clans do, so for example, clan Kerberos, might lose stamina for resolve. Not that I've thought of a good attribute pair for this particular bloodline.

Furthermore, I haven't accounted for the implication that clans originate from multiple bloodlines.

So like evolution then?

[Excess]

Guessing you haven't seen the Formosae in Night Horrors: Wicked Dead.

No, should get that book?

[Excess]

Perhaps one more question to close off this thread. The part neglected. You debated on what would occur if it happened, how does it happen? What should be the mechanics for the actual transition?