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Limits to the Coil of Zirnitra and Ziva

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  • Limits to the Coil of Zirnitra and Ziva

    This topic is not to be viewed as an attempt of making a character with such traits, it's an exercise of thought about the Vampiric condition.

    Medling with Zirnitra and its possibilities to recover and even learn new supernatural merits.
    And the possibilities of re-experiencing mortal life utilizing Ziva.

    Should it be theoretically possible to become another template entirely?
    Like, apart from stealing other supernatural powers with Zirnitra, a vampire utilising Ziva could Awaken of experience her First Change?


    Homebrews:
    Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd
    Ordo Dracul Coils: Hunger, Primal Blood
    Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

  • #2
    There are two big hurdles:
    First of all, many splats requires the character to be human on a deep metaphysical level that I doubt can be replicated without the vampire actually becoming human rather than just posing as one as per Coil of Ziva. Regaining a human soul and all.
    The other is that most splats requires outside intervention; a discrete force or entity that interacts with the character in order to transform them. Some of these can theoretically be approached by the character, but both preparing yourself to be fully compatible and tracking down and successfully petitioning such an entity is a massive effort.
    The two easiest splats are probably going to be Deviants, who can actually be self-made but does require a human soul that breaks in the process, and Bound, who are people who died and made deals with Geists which are probably the easiest of the various entities to find.

    Edit: The three splats that are outright impossible are as follows:
    Mummies - All of whom were created at the same time in a unique event. It's an exclusive club that's permanently closed to new membership.
    Prometheans - You could theoretically create one out of yourself, but the resulting character would fundamentally be a new person.
    Demons - Used to be ephemeral entities created by the God-Machine. Can't really replicate that in any way, shape or form.
    Last edited by Tessie; 03-21-2021, 04:41 PM.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
      This topic is not to be viewed as an attempt of making a character with such traits, it's an exercise of thought about the Vampiric condition.

      Medling with Zirnitra and its possibilities to recover and even learn new supernatural merits.
      And the possibilities of re-experiencing mortal life utilizing Ziva.

      Should it be theoretically possible to become another template entirely?
      Like, apart from stealing other supernatural powers with Zirnitra, a vampire utilising Ziva could Awaken of experience her First Change?
      Depends. Do you think a person skilled enough in the Coil of Ziva could trick the curse well enough to get itself "re-embraced" into a different clan?
      Because becoming a Uratha, Awakened or Changeling is technically harder than that and the persons involved have little to no control over it.
      As Tessie already pointed out - is that kindred are kind of unique in their capacity of making more of their own out of random people.
      And even for them it ain't perfect, as shown by the existence of Revenants &/or Larvae (depending on one's game).

      But let's look into it more deeply, in a case-by-case basis, so to speak:

      - Being Uratha is (apparently) an inborn factor, so becoming human once more (or simulating it) won't on itself be enough. It might at best allow one to become wolf-blooded i guess.

      - Managing to awaken oneself? No idea, it's not like there's a clear method to awakening or anyone truly knows what kind of singular condition or combination of them allows an individual to be called into one of the 5 Towers while another person is not. Would the coil of Ziva help with that or create something as twisted as the Tremere liches, someone touched by an abyssal condition like the False Awakening or worse? Hard to say.

      - Changelings? Well, could the Coil trick a True Fae in mistaking the kindred for mortal? If so, ho being taken to one of the many strange realms of Arcadia affect it? Would it survive, could it make the road back across the Hedge? And would it be changed in the same ways a mortal would or something completely different?And all of that without touching on the extra complication of Fetches as maybe one of the possible origins of the kindred....

      - Prometheans are not the person(s) they are made of, so no real way of becoming one. Now creating one, well, no idea and who's to say Gargoyles are not already a singular brand of promethean - or pandoran - of kindred making?

      - Demons of the God-Machine were never human in the first place, so it won't help any.

      - Geists? Maybe, maybe not. Considering the kindred are already kind of in the threshold between life & death, it might be the shortest jump for them.
      Or maybe being too close makes it the hardest not to overshoot & miss. It might lead to strange permutations i guess.

      - Mummies i have little familiarity with and - by canon so far - none were made since the ancient times (possibly in an alternate, not viable anymore, reality, to boot). That said there are lesser beings - bloodbathers, body thieves & purified - made with exotic magic rites that seem to relate to them. Some dedicated occultist might attempt either of them or even to create something new out of mixing & matching them. How well or badly would that go in relation to Mummies - not to mention what added bonuses & complications could the kindred condition (that already resonates with bloodbathers, might be said), totally up to the utterly twisted imagination of the ST.


      Those are my thoughts so far on the subject - and i'm the first to admit that my knowledge of the lore and mechanics of supernaturals beyond the kindred ain't exactly that deep or pervasive. If i missed anyone people think might be worth mentioning, feel free to shoot it.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 03-21-2021, 10:29 PM.

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      • #4
        Baaldam showed me one of the simpliest challenges. Trying to reEmbrace the Kindred into another clan while using the Coil of Ziva.

        My thoughts are as follows:

        Vampire: Would a Kindred using Shedding the Beast’s Skin be succeptible to another Embrace? The power strips your Vampiric Disciplines, your ability to hold and control Vitae and even your Blood Sympathy. You effectively become human again. After some time you reexperience your Embrace and revert into a Kindred, but in the meantime you can even become pregnant. What does it do to your soul? Can you be diablerized while in human form?

        Mage: Do you have a Soul while in human form? Some may say no, but we have no way of knowing how Ziva affets Kindred Souls, maybe is something akin to Time magic, reverting the Kindred back to a period of time were he had a Soul. Assuming he revert back into having a Soul, could this Soul could Awaken? I personally believe it could not, but I believe a Prime 3 spell Stealing Fire could turn this soul into a Sleepwalker. Would it suffer from Quiescence?

        Changeling: On the 1st edition book, Goblin Markets, there are Vampires who participate in the market as sellers and buyers. Kindred and other supernaturals are not immune to the pull of the Hedge, but there are no rules about Fae abduction. It also seems not only unwise but problematic and impractical to find a way into the Hedge, get kidnapped by a Fae, activate Ziva, become some sort of Changelling and finally escaping. I think it's easier to become a Goblin Queen being lost in the Hedge for a long period of time. My biggest doubt is about the Fetches, would it be possible to make a Fetch from the temporarily Human Vampire?

        Werewolf: Wolf-blooded becoming Kindred still retain their Tell, so I don't see much to do here.

        Deviant: The new kid on the block. Would it be possible for a Vampire to experiment on itself or other Kindreds so much that he become something different? I still have to buy and read these, but this is one of the most exiciting new things to try and study. I know that Deviant have a ridiculous number of different powers and abilities, and this makes those Zirnitra body snatches really happy.
        Last edited by Horodrigo; 03-22-2021, 10:28 AM.


        Homebrews:
        Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd
        Ordo Dracul Coils: Hunger, Primal Blood
        Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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        • #5
          Taking a stab at this from a different direction, could this coil allow one to sneak their way into the HL micro templates? They are mostly just supernatural merits set up like a "feat chain" after all.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
            Taking a stab at this from a different direction, could this coil allow one to sneak their way into the HL micro templates? They are mostly just supernatural merits set up like a "feat chain" after all.

            I guess it might depend on the micro-templates specific root causes, much like with Uratha and other major templates. Also, pardon the ignorance, but what do you mean by HL?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
              Vampire:
              Shedding the Beast's Skin was exactly what I referred to when I said "posing as a human". It locks away a lot of the vampiric nature and restarts a lot of the biological processes, but the fact that it's temporary and that the vampire reverts completely back to their true nature suggests that it's ultimately a relatively shallow transformation that doesn't fundamentally alter the underlying vampiric nature.
              I think if you want to make a Coil or Scale that truly restores the vampire to their mortal self, it should be something that requires a little more

              Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
              Mage:
              While it's conceivable that Shedding the Beast's Skin does revert the soul back to a human nature and "re-Embraces" it when reverting back, I personally doubt it since souls are generally treated as a Big Deal by the games that actually handle them. They can break relatively easy and reshaped to some degree, but not even Awakened magic can create souls. Since vampires die as part of (more specifically, before) the Embrace, they shouldn't have a soul that can be restored. They do, however, have something in the place of a soul, according to Nameless & Accursed.

              Of course, in a pinch you could just develop a Scale for stealing a mortal's soul. There's even a Strix Dread Power that does that.

              Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
              Werewolf:
              How the First Change works is quite iffy since everything in the books comes from an in-setting perspective. The 2e core book does put a lot of focus on Wolf-Blooded with Tells, but it's been clarified that a lot of werewolves were intended to come from lowercase wolf-blooded that don't have Tells as well. On top of that, we don't have any reliable accounts for what triggers the First Change. It could be random chance, but it could also be, as some werewolves believe, that Luna herself decides who's going to become a werewolf. Considering how unreliable the First Change is, I doubt she personally uplifts anyone, but she obviously have some influence in it considering Auspices and I would expect that a region that suffers massive werewolf losses for some reason or other is going to have a lot more First Changes than usual for a while just to replenish the numbers.
              The second iffy part is that we have basically no info regarding any other requirements for the First Change. How close to a human do you have to be in order to be eligible? We know from both N&A and idigam Essence Shaping that werewolves have something in place of a soul, but is that their original soul reshaped by the First Change? Do you even need a soul for the First Change? How "alive" do you need to be? Completely, or do you just need a functionally alive body that can have its biological processes cranked up by your new spiritual nature?
              But if you manage to solve those problems, becoming Wolf-Blooded (or even wolf-blooded) should be easy-peasy even if it's more involved than just stealing a Tell. Yes, Wolf-Blooded who gain a non-werewolf template do keep their Tell (in most but not all cases), but they also stop being Wolf-Blooded and eligible for the First Change. The Tell is just an expression of being Wolf-Blooded that remains like a vestigial organ.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                I guess it might depend on the micro-templates specific root causes, much like with Uratha and other major templates. Also, pardon the ignorance, but what do you mean by HL?
                Hurt locker i suppose, i had a similar conversation about micro templates on another post.
                By the words used on the power description it seems that it would allow to re-buy a micro template owned by the user before the embrace.
                I m not sure about buying a new micro template, rules as written it seems possible

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

                  Hurt locker i suppose, i had a similar conversation about micro templates on another post.
                  Oh, thanks a lot. Damn, so many years around and i still have to give that book the good long read it merits, shame.

                  Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                  By the words used on the power description it seems that it would allow to re-buy a micro template owned by the user before the embrace.
                  I m not sure about buying a new micro template, rules as written it seems possible
                  I guess it would depend considerably on the specific occult factors at the root of a micro template mostly.
                  Some might even have a much easier time merging with the vampiric curse inside than others in fact.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                    While it's conceivable that Shedding the Beast's Skin does revert the soul back to a human nature and "re-Embraces" it when reverting back, I personally doubt it since souls are generally treated as a Big Deal by the games that actually handle them. They can break relatively easy and reshaped to some degree, but not even Awakened magic can create souls. Since vampires die as part of (more specifically, before) the Embrace, they shouldn't have a soul that can be restored. They do, however, have something in the place of a soul, according to Nameless & Accursed.

                    Of course, in a pinch you could just develop a Scale for stealing a mortal's soul. There's even a Strix Dread Power that does that.
                    Supposing the soul is such a key factor to awakening - because there are billions of people with them that have never Awakened in the first place, most probably never will and the Awakened themselves have no idea whatsoever of what might be the essential component or combination of them behind it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                      Supposing the soul is such a key factor to awakening - because there are billions of people with them that have never Awakened in the first place, most probably never will and the Awakened themselves have no idea whatsoever of what might be the essential component or combination of them behind it.
                      There's an entire subset of mages who study Awakenings. They know.

                      The problem is that the three deciding factors for triggering the process of Awakening include one that is basically just divine intervention based on criteria nobody can quite nail down, and attempts to force the issue with archmagic go… badly.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                        Supposing the soul is such a key factor to awakening - because there are billions of people with them that have never Awakened in the first place, most probably never will and the Awakened themselves have no idea whatsoever of what might be the essential component or combination of them behind it.
                        The Awakening is by far the most understood transformation from mortal into a splat, both in-setting and out-of-setting. In-setting because mages are the most inquisitive splat with the best tools for studying the topic (and, as Satchel already mentioned, there are mages who are dedicated to studying this particular topic), and out-of-setting because a lot of it is actually described to the players. I suggest taking a look at Signs of Sorcery if you want to read up on it for second edition.

                        In contrast, the First Change is probably the least* understood transformation because everything behind why and how people are chosen (except for the single fact that Wolf-Blooded are much more likely to be chosen) stems from unreliable and unverifiable oral traditions.

                        *discounting Deviants since they don't have a unified origin/method or transformation


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #13
                          Im sure some Dragon with more ambition then good sense is on this thread.


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                          • #14
                            We're focusing on the other splats, but even just the supernatural mortal power of Pyrokinesis would unbalance the game for beginning vampires. I realize in One Thousand Years of Night there is an elder devotion that does something similar - but a Vampire that can throw fire around provoking frenzy and cause aggravated damage? And per RAW just a beginning vampire can do this? Idk... Either completely unhinge the game if allowed or the existing vampires would take out a neonate doing this (or the Ordo Dracul would capture them and start experimenting...)

                            I have never had a ST that actually allows Zirnitra - I tried to play one once and it wisely was shot down immediately.

                            I've seen Ziva in play and it is OP, especially if the ST allows the creation of new scales.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mikerand View Post
                              We're focusing on the other splats, but even just the supernatural mortal power of Pyrokinesis would unbalance the game for beginning vampires. I realize in One Thousand Years of Night there is an elder devotion that does something similar - but a Vampire that can throw fire around provoking frenzy and cause aggravated damage? And per RAW just a beginning vampire can do this? Idk... Either completely unhinge the game if allowed or the existing vampires would take out a neonate doing this (or the Ordo Dracul would capture them and start experimenting...)

                              I have never had a ST that actually allows Zirnitra - I tried to play one once and it wisely was shot down immediately.

                              I've seen Ziva in play and it is OP, especially if the ST allows the creation of new scales.
                              If only the text in very clear terms recognised that some Supernatural Merits are potentially unthematic or otherwise unfitting and thus requires discussion and agreement between both player and Storyteller:
                              "It’s worth noting that this can cause unintended complications for a chronicle. Not every human Supernatural Merit will work well within a Vampire chronicle. Use firm discretion, and discuss each given purchase with your Storyteller."


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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