No announcement yet.

Covenantless merits

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Covenantless merits


    Does it make sense for a mortal, ghoul or another supernatural to have access to those merits that requier No Covenant Status? I refer to:
    • Casual User
    • Chorister
    • Independent Study
    • Laity
    • One Foot in the Door
    Of those, seems to me that at least Casual User could potentially be taken by ghouls and other supernaturals, as the Carthian creed could accept some Werewolf Iron Master or some Mage Free Councillor.

    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 10-10-2021, 02:53 PM.

  • #2
    I think baring Carthains (perhaps) they wouldn't for a slew of reasons. For instance, ghouls are above the Kine but aren't Kindred so the Ordo, L&S and CoC probably wouldn't accept anyone but Vampires. Perhaps Invictus too, if only in a way to accrue power and influence in other spheres without committing to much. A sort of "See what we can offer, free of charge" for them.

    At least that's how I feel about it all !


    • #3
      Originally posted by Secrets of the Covenants, p. 177
      With Storyteller discretion, some of the Merits may be used outside their respective covenants. For example, the Carthian Merit “Mobilize Outrage” doesn’t offer any hard reasons why it couldn’t be used outside the Movement, or even by human characters. Its inclusion here reflects the fact that it’s generally taught to Carthians, and is an important tool to the Movement. While the sections state that such Merits require a dot of Covenant Status, use your best judgment for your chronicles. In some cases, for example “Toss That Shit Right Back,” it could apply for non-Kindred characters as well.
      So the book's position is that what matters is that what the Merit does makes sense for the character using it, inclining towards flexibility.

      I think all of the "half a Status dot" Merits make sense for a non-vampire character who is clued in to the All Night Society and has proven a reliable ally to the covenant in question, for the purposes of their social effects. I wouldn't stop a werewolf from buying a dot of Allies (Vampires) or even Allies (Acolytes), so why not these? Vampires tend to be a pragmatic lot. Sure, there will be some domains where the covenant is particularly ideological and unreceptive, but that's not universal for any of them.

      In terms of additional/supernatural effects, I would follow the example of Casual User. Having a non-vampire who's bought into the Carthian teratosocial contract count as a citizen for vampires invoking Carthian Law is cool. Letting a non-vampire learn Cruac isn't, at least not as a standard "just buy this Merit and spend the experience cost" free pass. I tend to think it's more interesting keeping monsters largely in their own lanes in terms of their supernatural abilities rather than straight pilfering. It might justify, say, a mage having basis to develop a custom Merit that draws more on blood sympathy for their casting, though. As for Circle Merits, I wouldn't incline towards allowing any of them internal to the character's abilities, but in a similar spirit to Carthian Law, I wouldn't mind a non-vampire taking Altar and contributing to the monstrous power of a site for Cruac.

      Depending on your home game's implications of the nature of Theban Sorcery, I might allow some variant form of Theban Sorcery to be learned by non-vampiric Laity. Or I might not. Cruac I would treat as thoroughly of the Blood. Ghouls maybe, dhampirs maybe, nobody foreign to the Blood. If a group's game decides to allow for non-vampiric Theban Sorcery, then the covenant more inclined to freely share their sorcerous tradition is ironically the one unable to do so, whereas the covenant that guards its secrets more jealously could, with an unjudicious leak, witness a non-vampire wielding them, and probably be taken aback by the very idea.

      Independent Study, of course, shouldn't allow the Mysteries of the Dragon for non-vampires, even with tutelage. You don't transform a Curse you don't have in the first place. Could a non-vampire use the teachings of the Mysteries as a basis for developing Mysteries applicable to other types of monstrocity instead of vampires? I wouldn't assume yes, but if it makes sense for a particular group's game it could be interesting.
      Last edited by Stupid Loserman; 10-10-2021, 03:34 PM.


      • #4
        How much sense it makes depends on the game. By default, they're just a way to get Status without having Status. A big reason for these to exist is that you can't have more than five dots in combined Covenant Status. So if you have Carthian Status 4 and LeS Status 1... you'd have to lose Status before gaining more. Independent Study lets you get quasi-Status 1 with the OD without modifying your normal Status levels.

        In a crossover game... is crossover Status even allowed? If yes, given what Status means, these Merits seem redundant. If I can buy Carthian Status 1 to represent my Unchained working with the local Carthians for mutual benefit, what do I need Casual User for? If the ST isn't allowing that, it seems questionable to use these Merits to get around that decision instead of just using Merits like Allies or Contacts to represent connections across supernatural faction lines.


        • #5
          Similar Question? Could Oath of the model prisoner be learned by say the daughter of a hunter being held hostage?


          • #6
            Who's being held hostage? If the father is being held hostage, the daughter has nothing to do with it. The hostage has to swear the oath.

            The hostage also has to swear it in concert with an Invictus Notary, so if the hostage isn't a vampire and the Invictus don't want to offer the terms of oath, tough luck.


            • #7
              the daughter being held hostage

              If the hostage isnt a vampire is simply choosing to treat her as a guest not allowed to go home yet easier then the oath of the model prisoner?


              • #8
                Why would the vampires want her to swear the oath? Are they that unsure that they can keep her imprisoned?

                Non-vampires can swear Invictus Oaths. Like with any Invictus Oath, this requires the participation of a vampire Notary. It just usually doesn't come up because mortals can be managed and other supernatural beings don't regularly mingle with them. Beyond that I think this is probably getting off-topic.


                • #9
                  They want to be able t o see her father collect her healthy and hale. But your right of course.