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If the Invictus are caught trying to oust a non invictus prince, what then?

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  • If the Invictus are caught trying to oust a non invictus prince, what then?

    think the covenanat would be outlawed in the city or just see the death of a few members off the innerr circle?



  • #2
    This is such a detail dependent question with answers ranging from literally nothing to the complete albeit localized destruction of the Covenant.

    For a specific answer i would want to know details, such as;
    What Covenant is currently in power?
    How powerful are they? do they dominate or are they merely a majority?
    Is the Prince liked or are they a despot?
    What's the current status of the local Invictus?
    How badly did the coup fail? was it public? did they have popular support?

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    • #3
      How's the city structured?
      Which names were exposed?
      Did the plan involved collateral damage? To whom?

      basketcase is right, it just can't be answered in a vacuum, every single detail depends on specific context.


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      • #4
        There is no general answer for this question. In addition to what basketcase and monteparnas asked, the individual personalities and histories of decision-making vampires in the domain matter hugely. Possibilities range all the way from a slap on the wrist to setting the whole city on fire.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by basketcase View Post
          This is such a detail dependent question with answers ranging from literally nothing to the complete albeit localized destruction of the Covenant.

          For a specific answer i would want to know details, such as;
          What Covenant is currently in power?
          How powerful are they? do they dominate or are they merely a majority?
          Is the Prince liked or are they a despot?
          What's the current status of the local Invictus?
          How badly did the coup fail? was it public? did they have popular support?

          Say

          The circle of the Crone Say their not a majority but the prince is able to levy cruac for politcal power.

          The prince is respected though not loved


          The local invictus invested decades of planning into things plotting to take praxis

          But it all comes crashing down when the Circles divinations find what their plotting.
          And say no popular support.

          Is forcing a blood bond on the entire inner circle a reasonable response?
          I


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
            Is forcing a blood bond on the entire inner circle a reasonable response?
            No, but why should the response be reasonable? Is the Prince a reasonable person?

            If the Prince is a reasonable, rational person, then they know that having that many Bounded kindred at once is dangerous. Mechanical advantages aside, it is hard to predict what a single thrall will do with the Bond, much less several, some of them powerful, and everyone involved in the struggle for power in the city.

            But since Kindred aren't always in full grasp of their better judgement, sure, why not? Dealing with a full Covenant is going to be tricky no matter what, this idea may help to avoid unpleasant decisions.

            The Prince have some leeway if they already have the Circle at their disposal and is at least respected against a coup without popular support, but extreme decisions may change this balance. If the Invictus are despised, then the Prince can go farther, but if the Invictus is equally respected-but-not-loved then things can get tricky. Numbers also matter, as matter the relation of the Prince with other Covenants. If there are many Invictus, too harsh a punishment risks civil war, as those vampires are likely to fight for their lives. If other Covenants are unease, the action o the Invictus may send a message, and it may be the wrong message.

            So bonding them all, or just their leaders, may seem like a good compromise. Few or no members must be expelled or put down, order is maintained. Of course it isn't so simple and depends a lot on the individuals involved and on how the Bond is viewed in local Kindred society. The prospect of Blood Bond to the Prince being a new praxis may not sit well. Presenting this decision to the populace in a non-damaging way may be from hard to impossible.

            Life as a Prince shouldn't be easy.


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            • #7
              1) Ask a Simple Question Threads, use them.

              2) I feel like before answering the question, we need to sort of challenge the premise of the question, which seems to associate the Conspiracy of Silence with a need to always be the one in power.

              This is not actually the case. The Invictus are used to being trusted with a domain's power, authority and resources because their branches have been very successful for a good part of the the history in "Western" civilization following the fall of the Camarilla in taking and maintaining power for their ends...but those ends are a perk of their main concern.

              The Invictus are, for the most part, interested in the long-term stability and order of any given domain. They make sure the bodies get buried where they can't be found, that troublemakers get addressed and out of the picture, that there is a storm shelter or escape plan if for some reason the populace gets torch-and-pitchforky, that the Elysium has the resources it needs to function, and (this is the real important part) that there is a solid and easy to understand organization that can respond to the stressors of a domain with efficiency.

              The Invictus, with this in mind, actually adapt pretty well to when they aren't the ones calling the shots, so long as their allowed to maintain their own internal hierarchy in conjunction with whatever the model is for the domain. The Carthians wanna run Council Communism, fine, let them-the Invictus will make sure things keep stable while they play their games. THe Circle of the Crone wants to have their wild hunts, the leader of the pack declaring primal law? Fine, they'll make sure no one finds the prey.

              This doesn't mean they have to collectively approve of the main seat of power in a domain, or just play nice with it-they frequently don't-but a lot of times, all they have to do is let the chaos given to any change of governance model do it's work, and otherwise keep up the support structures they already have in place to stand as the reason why you don't argue with them, because it works, whatever other issue might be taken with it. In the meantime though, the domain's gotta run smoothly, and the Invictus will play it's part. It may be easier to keep that order and efficiency in place while someone in the neo-feudal hierarchy has the say on everything, but just because they don't doesn't stop the Conspiracy from working.

              So when it comes to ousting Princes, the Invictus are ironically gonna be the ones who act with the most legitimacy in doing so. After all, they may be unjust and keen to impose classist inequality on people-but they are familiar to most vampires and they work, where as the ideals of any other faction tend to make even the cleanest of transitions messy and problematic in their beginnings, and have a feeling being a passing fad even in longer-term success, where as the Invictus can easily prove that neo-serfdom is not only alive and well but fully functioning at almost any given time. They often just need to wait for the excuse-and given how much they will always put into the maintenance of a domain, they can sometimes ease that along by letting a few things slip.

              THe real instance of an outrageous ousting is also going to be another major proof of the Invictus's overall effectiveness in a domain, because the main thing that's gonna get them to not wait is trying to fuck with the internal structure of the Invictus. The Invictus are happy to play democracy with the Carthians, as an example, so long as they understand they are going to operate as a voting block, because they still have kings and dukes and lords within their own organization. If the Carthians want to break up that voting bloc however, then the Invictus....stop doing their job, and even start unburying the corpses. The Invictus will demonstrate what all that hierarchy and secret keeping and maintenance of a domain actually means by flipping it all out and pouring all the consequences of the actions of whatever party is trying to break them up back onto themselves-the Invictus are commonly the reason vampires get to make mistakes in their unlives and get away with it, and without that structure, the whole thing becomes so much more fucked-and frequently creates the precedence that whatever Prince-substitute isn't strong enough to actually be the top motherfucking vampire in the town.

              So long story short, The Invictus are actually some of the most likely to go along with whatever the model of Elysium is for a region due to having their main priotization being the stability and order of a domain regardless of who's running it and relying on the bet that whatever's in power now is gonna run out of steam eventually, at which point killing whatever's playing as Prince is gonna be understood as well and justified. Other covenants placing theirs in the Prince's throne is a scandal and an upset, a storm upon the sea, but the Invictus taking the throne is inevitable and even comfortable, even if it's a crap game-the sea upon which other storms act and ultimately pass over.
              Last edited by ArcaneArts; 10-14-2021, 01:15 PM.


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