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  • Celerity and surprise attacks

    The manual states that the active effect of celerity that lets you multiply your speed by your dots of celerity plus one allows you to lunch surprise attacks, how would this work?

  • #2
    It would allow you to use the rules for Surprise on page 176.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      Even in combat? this question came up in my last game and nobody knew the answer, the situation was that a player used celerity to interrupt an hunter and get behind him, he asked the ST if he should have rolled for a surprise attack and the ST admitted that he had no idea, this would be a game changer for a lot of combat related encounters.

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      • #4
        This same question come up long time ago. Rule are not clear at all.
        It may seem a bit OP if you can use in combat as many time you want but, as it's written, would lead me to interpret like this. There is no limitation of usage as for interrupt.
        Stating that it's only applicable outside combat for me doesn't have much sense. Outside combat you may be able to lunch Surprise attacks anyway.
        We personally do not use this part but I wouldn't argue if someone stated it should be possibile to use in combat.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Marcus View Post
          This same question come up long time ago. Rule are not clear at all.
          It may seem a bit OP if you can use in combat as many time you want but, as it's written, would lead me to interpret like this. There is no limitation of usage as for interrupt.
          Stating that it's only applicable outside combat for me doesn't have much sense. Outside combat you may be able to lunch Surprise attacks anyway.
          We personally do not use this part but I wouldn't argue if someone stated it should be possibile to use in combat.

          Technically interrupt can be used only for as many dots of celerity you have per scene, it does seem a bit OP but frankly, thats the whole schtick of celerity, in my particular case the ST ruled that the PC could have attacked only factoring half of the defence of the target.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


            Technically interrupt can be used only for as many dots of celerity you have per scene, it does seem a bit OP but frankly, thats the whole schtick of celerity, in my particular case the ST ruled that the PC could have attacked only factoring half of the defence of the target.
            Surprise is not tied to interrupt but to the speee multiplier which has no limit per scene.
            It is OP if you can neglet, every turn, defense to your opponent with only 1 bp. But, as I said, there are even more OP discipline, like dominate (yes even in combat as it requires one turn and 0 vitae to calm down the target).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Marcus View Post

              Surprise is not tied to interrupt but to the speee multiplier which has no limit per scene.
              It is OP if you can neglet, every turn, defense to your opponent with only 1 bp. But, as I said, there are even more OP discipline, like dominate (yes even in combat as it requires one turn and 0 vitae to calm down the target).

              Honestly it would kinda make sense, you are basically flash stepping behind your opponent so he definitelly shouldn't be able to defend himself without an ambush check, besides, like you arleady said, there are even more OP disciplines in combat.

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              • #8
                The rules for surprise are clear as glass: Anyone who is surprised can't take instant actions or apply their Defense during the first turn of combat. Using Celerity to facilitate surprise attacks means you get to initiate combat as if it was an ambush without having to hide or do any other actions to try to surprise your opponent. Also, nothing says you leave out the roll to notice surprise attacks.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  The rules for surprise are clear as glass: Anyone who is surprised can't take instant actions or apply their Defense during the first turn of combat. Using Celerity to facilitate surprise attacks means you get to initiate combat as if it was an ambush without having to hide or do any other actions to try to surprise your opponent. Also, nothing says you leave out the roll to notice surprise attacks.

                  I get starting combat with an ambush but what I meant was during actual combat, after the first round, could a vampire spam as many ambush attacks as he has blood? like costantly moving around to attack his opponent from behind.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


                    I get starting combat with an ambush but what I meant was during actual combat, after the first round, could a vampire spam as many ambush attacks as he has blood? like costantly moving around to attack his opponent from behind.
                    According to the rules, no.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                      According to the rules, no.

                      What rule says so?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                        What rule says so?
                        The rule that states that surprise attacks only occur during the first turn of combat. Just because that specific effect of Celerity can be used during combat doesn't mean you can ignore the qualifying part of the surprise rules. Note that Celerity says that you "may" use the effect to launch surprise attacks. That doesn't mean you're automatically granted the opportunity to make a surprise attack regardless of other circumstances. You wouldn't assume you could just re-hide with a successful Stealth roll during combat to launch a new surprise attack despite it not being the first turn of combat, so why would you think Celerity would allow you to do that?
                        You could absolutely devise a new rule to handle unexpected attacks during combat (a rule that is unfortunately missing from the game), and it would be rational to model it on the existing rules of surprise, but that would be a house rule.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                          The rule that states that surprise attacks only occur during the first turn of combat. Just because that specific effect of Celerity can be used during combat doesn't mean you can ignore the qualifying part of the surprise rules. Note that Celerity says that you "may" use the effect to launch surprise attacks. That doesn't mean you're automatically granted the opportunity to make a surprise attack regardless of other circumstances. You wouldn't assume you could just re-hide with a successful Stealth roll during combat to launch a new surprise attack despite it not being the first turn of combat, so why would you think Celerity would allow you to do that?
                          You could absolutely devise a new rule to handle unexpected attacks during combat (a rule that is unfortunately missing from the game), and it would be rational to model it on the existing rules of surprise, but that would be a house rule.

                          The way the rule is worded, it doesn't outright say that you can only surprise someone in the first turn, also hiding again with stealth might be far fetched but using a discipline like obfuscate would technically allow you to disappear while in combat so how is celerity different? to your opponent you would look like you are teleporting around it and there would be no way he would be capable of realizing you are going to attack until it is too late, I'm fine either way since celerity is plenty powerful already but I find the idea of being able to flash step behind people to be really cool.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                            The way the rule is worded, it doesn't outright say that you can only surprise someone in the first turn, also hiding again with stealth might be far fetched but using a discipline like obfuscate would technically allow you to disappear while in combat so how is celerity different? to your opponent you would look like you are teleporting around it and there would be no way he would be capable of realizing you are going to attack until it is too late, I'm fine either way since celerity is plenty powerful already but I find the idea of being able to flash step behind people to be really cool.
                            Page 176, "Surprise":
                            "Any character who fails the roll cannot take an action in the first turn of combat, and can’t apply Defense for that turn."

                            I also think that's a pretty cool idea. That's why we've homebrewed Quicker Than Sight:
                            Quicker than Sight
                            (Celerity ••, Vigor ••)
                            This relatively rare Devotion is based on the idea that an enemy cannot defend against what they cannot see coming. While most Kindred would let such subtleties go through the Obfuscate Discipline, some few have chosen speed rather than deception. Quicker than sight is a trick that allows the Vampire to strike before anyone watching them could possibly have reacted, to most the vampire is simply a momentary blur, and their enemy falls down dead. This Devotion is rarely taught from one Kindred to another, but rather individually developed when Kindred have contemplated the value of speed. Versions of this power have been developed by Kindred as far apart as Japan and the American Southwest.
                            Cost: 1 Vitae
                            Dice Pool: None
                            Action: Reflexive
                            When activated, Quicker than Sight lasts for a single attack, but that attack is so fast that unless the Vampire’s victim has any defense that applies against firearms, they simply cannot react quick enough to apply defense.
                            This Devotion costs 3 Experiences to learn.

                            It requires a little more investment, and is naturally countered by anything which grants Defense vs firearms (such as Celerity, partially, and the Quicken Sight Devotion from the core book). It's actually even more powerful than your interpretation of base Celerity since it bypasses the surprise roll completely, so it might not be to your liking.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • #15
                              Just grab/make a cheap Merit or Devotion that explicitly allows mid-battle reestablishment of Surprise, because by current RAW no one can.


                              MtAw Homebrew:
                              Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                              New 2E Legacies, expanded

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