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Frenzy vs Idol

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  • Frenzy vs Idol

    I don't know how to word my question! A vampire lost in a killing frenzy... A vampire with idol active... Does vamp A get an auto pass on the rolls to attack vamp B or would the frenzy be subdued? Would the frenzy be pushed to another available target? Could they even frenzy with intent to kill if idol was active?

  • #2
    Depends on the circumstances really. If the vampire with Idol active Awed or Charmed the frenzying vampire first, they 'might' be able to redirect it, presuming they aren't the direct cause. If the frenzying vampire wasn't subjected to Awe or charmed by the vampire using Idol first or he turns on Idol in hopes of redirecting it, it's an auto fail.

    Yes you can enter frenzy with Idol active. There are currently no disciplines that prohibit you from entering frenzy. Only a Touchstone can talk a vampire out of frenzy and it's not instantaneous. Frenzy is one of the reasons why most vampire society has a social contract about NOT violating each other at will with disciplines because the vampire you violated may decide to reciprocate on you by Riding the Wave with a splintered Louisville Slugger in their hands. Frenzy is useful for blunting or ending some types of mind or emotion control but since you normally have to kill or perform massive property damage before dropping out of frenzy it will likely erode your Humanity fairly quickly and or/make the local authorities consider your existence a liability to society they can ill-afford.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
      Would the frenzy be pushed to another available target?
      That's exactly it. Check out the last paragraph that starts on pg. 104. You can use Disciplines to shift the focus of a vampire's Frenzy, but you can't shut it down. Doesn't matter if the power was active pre-Frenzy, or it's popped off after a vamp flips her lid.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Smarmy Vamp View Post
        That's exactly it. Check out the last paragraph that starts on pg. 104. You can use Disciplines to shift the focus of a vampire's Frenzy, but you can't shut it down. Doesn't matter if the power was active pre-Frenzy, or it's popped off after a vamp flips her lid.
        That is exactly what I was thinking. Idol prevents people/vampires from even wanting to harm you. You have to make a roll to do anything that could harm the vampire, so if the 1 vampire wanted to throw themselves into a frenzy with the sole purpose of harming the vampire wouldn't that go against Idol. If I understand, idol is reflexive, anyone's turn, and frenzy is instant, your turn.

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        • #5
          Resisting frenzy is reflexive (1st paragraph pg 104) in response to something that would trigger a frenzy. You can enter frenzy outside your turn and it doesn't take any sort of action unless you're riding the wave.

          Idol is reflexive, but remember that it modifies Awe and Awe is an instant action. If Awe was already active then that sequence of events works. The vampire frenzies and before she can attack the Prince cranks up Idol reflexively to shift the vampire's target to some other hapless wretch nearby. If the Prince didn't already have Awe up he may have to endure a turn of frenzied savagery before he can fire up his Majesty.

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          • #6
            I am talking about the kind of frenzy you can put yourself into, is that riding the wave? The one you do yourself, not because something caused it.

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            • #7
              I'd say Idol would prevent you from consciously triggering a Frenzy in yourself. You're not stopping the Frenzy, you're stopping the thought process and actions that would lead to a voluntary Frenzy ala Riding the Wave being triggered. With a provoked, natural frenzy you are, of course, shit out of luck.

              Also, the rules on the reflexiveness of Idol are confusing. The discipline says you -can- wait for Awe to be dropped first, or you can simply activate Idol immediately (activating Awe with it automatically). That sounds like Idol potentially makes Awe reflexive.

              To play devil's advocate against ourselves for a moment, Frenzy says that attempts to coerce the beast into behaviour contrary to her desires fail, but is that really what's going on here? You're not making the vampire do anything, you're only keeping them at bay. If the frenzied vampire's desire was to "tear you a new one", he or she could still be struggling against Idol every turn, trying to get at you. They're still doing exactly what their Beast wants them to do. Putting a leash on something or putting a road block in their way is making the successful execution of their desires harder, sure, but it's not coercing them into a new behaviour at all. (In a way, it's no different from having defense or armour so high that you can't be harmed by the other vampire. You're not changing their behaviour, but mitigating their chance of success.)The example given is about Dominate directly giving orders to someone, which is a bit different than Majesty's "do not fuck me up" aura.
              Last edited by Unahim; 08-21-2014, 09:00 AM.

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              • #8
                Right, Vitalis, that's riding the wave. I agree with Unahim that if you're currently affected by Idol you would not be able to ride the wave unless the vampire using Idol gave you permission to go sick house on someone, or you successfully challenge the power with the reflexive Resolve + Blood Potency - user's Majesty dots.

                If you succeed at that you can then begin trying to ride the wave. Remember that you have to repeat the roll for each individual action you want to take that violates the Idol, so unless you hammer your first riding the wave check with an exceptional success it becomes a very tricky proposition. I would rule that if you begin riding the wave, then fail one of the Idol rolls you are treated as failing to ride the wave and immediately enter frenzy (remember that it counts as a dramatic failure on a resist frenzy roll). You'd still be subject to the active Idol power and can try to contest it to attack the user as normal, but if you fail you'll be redirected to another target.

                Unahim: That part in Idol is just explaining that you don't have to activate it when you activate Awe. You can have Awe up on its own, then you can fire up Idol later to push your Awe into overdrive. Or you can pay the cost of Idol immediately when you activate Awe and get all the effects at once. It's not saying you can activate Awe as a reflexive action.

                Using Idol to force a frenzied vampire to back down and cower is most certainly trying to coerce the Beast into behavior contrary to her desires. The Beast wants to rip that fucker's throat out and bathe in his blood. Idol says, "Sit, doggy." You can't make the frenzied vamp back down, but you can shift her away from you, assuming she failed her roll to act against the Idol. The Dominate example was just that, an example, not an exhaustive list.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Unahim View Post
                  Also, the rules on the reflexiveness of Idol are confusing. The discipline says you -can- wait for Awe to be dropped first, or you can simply activate Idol immediately (activating Awe with it automatically). That sounds like Idol potentially makes Awe reflexive
                  I asked once long ago about this, I believe Rose! said it does both in one reflexive action... I suppose I should start digging for that thread.... Lol!
                  Last edited by Vitalis; 08-21-2014, 09:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Ooo. I'd be very interested to see that if you can find it.

                    Ah, I found where you were talking about whether or not you have to pay the cost of Idol when you activate it along with Awe. It's still pretty clear that it doesn't change the activation action of Awe (instant). Rose and PenDragon suggested that when you have Idol, you should think of it as changing the way Awe works to Cost: None, or 2 Vitae and 1 Willpower. Nothing about the activation time.
                    Last edited by Smarmy Vamp; 08-21-2014, 09:28 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vitalis View Post

                      I asked once long ago about this, I believe toes said it does both in one reflexive action... I suppose I should start digging for that thread.... Lol!
                      That's the thread I was thinking of as well, but we might both be mistaken. Anyway, Smarmy, I did say I was playing Devil's Advocate: I wouldn't personally rule that way in my games. But it's very easy to see someone arguing for Idol being basically invisible bonds holding you back. I would say the "Sit, doggy." part is only relating to those you've charmed who are now Enthralled.

                      Actually, I've checked the thread now as well (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...e-majesty-idol), and I'm still not convinced you can't reflexively activate Idol and Awe. PenDragon says that when Awe isn't in effect, it and Idol activate simultaneously. He doesn't say that this can only happen on your turn.

                      Then Rose talks about accounting for the time between two reflexive actions, as if she thinks Awe is also reflexive. The obvious conclusion being that she thinks Idol should be able to be activated reflexively even when Awe isn't on. I could be wrong and misreading her, of course, but if I am then why bring that second reflexive action in there?
                      Last edited by Unahim; 08-21-2014, 09:47 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Yeah yeah, I was just running the counterpoint to your advocacy. I wouldn't rule it as invisible bonds either, but emotional deflection if you fail the challenge roll. The Beast just shifts away from whatever the hell THAT thing is (the Idol user) and goes after something it can more easily annihilate.

                        This is good discussion, and I appreciate a good Devil's Advocate.

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                        • #13
                          Ah! you beat me to it! Since Idol is reflexive, you can do it whenever and activate both, That's how we have been using it!.
                          Last edited by Vitalis; 08-21-2014, 09:58 AM.

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                          • #14
                            That's definitely not what that thread was saying, but there's nothing wrong with your group playing it that way.

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                            • #15
                              This is helpful stuff and I thank you.

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