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  • The city doesn't really map nicely into four quadrants though. The only thing I can think of that even mirrors that would be the town of Mont Royal, which is not technically part of Mount Royal, half of which is set out in a big X or asterisk-shaped design. And thematically I feel like if you start getting really philosophical about dividing CONCEPTUAL space into quadrants, it's starting to get more Mage than Vampire.

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    • Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
      And thematically I feel like if you start getting really philosophical about dividing CONCEPTUAL space into quadrants, it's starting to get more Mage than Vampire.
      Not necessarily a bad thing, but I admit I'm biased because the game I've used the Nameless in is absolutely a crossover.
      I've shaken things up a little, where the "Cross" the Nameless refers to is actually an abyssal Crossways, and the Nameless itself is a group of supernaturals led by an elder of VII, which in this interpretation is a strix that has been subsumed by the God Machine.

      Glad to see this thread still going. The Nameless is definitely one of my favorite scenarios to play with.

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      • Re-red the post, happy to see this thread is still alive, was thinking of starting a game in Montreal with the Nameless. So it got me thinking, what if the 7th law can not be written because it translates in a game system, like "do not reach blood potentie 8. What happens to old vampires, does powerful ones, i am thinking the Nameless grabs em to never be seen again. Also the kindred of the city still have internet and other world contact what is stoping them to call back up from the old countries? And ghouls i was wondering what is stoping the kindred society to mobilise by proxy with army of ghouls? In my head canon something is deep in the Moint-Royal and the Nameless is garding it, i was thinking a farm for the VII some sort of brainwashing site/training camp. And what about the other supernatural, mostly mages and werewolves are the biggest treat to the Nameless

        Let's not let this tread die it is one of the best on the forum

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        • Rule vii could be about mortals or the masquerade. Do we know what happens when a ghoul brakes a rule?

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          • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
            Do we know what happens when a ghoul brakes a rule?
            Well what do you do when your dog barks at people it shouldn't? You kick it repeatedly until learns to keep its fucking mouth shut it's fucking place.
            Last edited by DubiousRuffian; 10-19-2019, 12:38 AM.

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            • Sorry for the thread necro.

              I've been wondering how the investigation mechanic could be used to help players figure out what the nameless is and have less of a planned ST feel to it.
              How would you set up this kind of investigation and do any of you have tips?

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              • Originally posted by Mateus View Post
                Sorry for the thread necro.

                I've been wondering how the investigation mechanic could be used to help players figure out what the nameless is and have less of a planned ST feel to it.
                How would you set up this kind of investigation and do any of you have tips?
                So the investigation system is great because of how flexible it is. The thing to keep in mind is that, who or whatever the Nameless is, clearly they are inscrutable and hard to find anything out about, or they wouldn't be called the Nameless. Thus, enacting penalties to the Investigation system checks would be applicable - merits like Anonymity and Untouchable can help in this regard, as can just setting the clue threshold to a very high bar.

                Consider also making it a layered check. Make the content of the individual clues less important and make it so that, when they have succeeded one investigation, then they get a layer-level clue, which you can shape to reflect the overall theme of that investigation. Then they begin a new quest, but now, the Nameless is aware that they know something and may start interfering outside of just covering tracks.

                Also, there's a way that doesn't involve mechanics. Make it so that each check is done collectively at a set pace (say, once or twice per session by the group). Then, when they have hit their success, ask them to make a theory of what they think they have learned based on everything so far. Take their ideas and use them to inform the final idea, adding your own twists as you go. John Wick had a similar theory of collective dungeon design, where the players would in-character investigate the ancient ruins in myth and legend and lore ahead of a dungeon crawl, and give them bonus tokens for ideas they suggest, but for each set of IRL time they took to discuss something, the DM got a complication token. This token could be spent not to eliminate or completely invalidate something the PCs "found out," but rather add a twist - maybe the safe, trap-free passage they thought they found had a blockage that would make it hard to take treasure out from, or they had an outdated map and someone put a new trap in a place that didn't have one or in a place that no prior explorer had actually tripped on. Something similar could happen here, with the group collectively adding elements to the Nameless' story, but the ST gaining ways to "complicate" it to something they don't expect.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mateus View Post
                  Sorry for the thread necro.

                  I've been wondering how the investigation mechanic could be used to help players figure out what the nameless is and have less of a planned ST feel to it.
                  How would you set up this kind of investigation and do any of you have tips?
                  Don’t look for me seems to be the counter to any such efforts but yes it could be used. The first thing you would need is an answer for the players to find and beyond that I would say that this is too important a question to be answered just by rolling dice unless you were working from outside the city by sending ghoul investors and questioning people over the phone before the big ending.

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                  • Okay so... I'm far from fluent in Vampire : The Requiem 2e (I'm still waiting for my paper version of the French translation!) but reading this thread had got me thinking... Do Carthians even truly understand how Carthian Law works ?

                    After all, there seems to be some real emphasis on Order under the law. An imposed Order, but one nonetheless. And we know that the God-Machine likes Order - one it wants to uphold as it deems fit, but still... And it had Angels to do his biding. So what if the Nameless was a perfect storm of events which led to the creation of a Stigmatic Carthian Law ? I imagine that something like this happened :

                    a) The Carthians in the city discover/learn about Carthian Law but realize that they can't impose it until they rule Montreal with the certitude that they won't be overthrown easily.
                    b) A sub-group of the Movement decides to try and bypass it, reasoning that if they can somehow impose Carthian Law before taking over, then they would naturally ascend to power, being the ones upheld by the Law
                    c) They seek out ways of making it happens and discover a defector from the Lance/an ancient cache of Theban Sorcery (the Blood Magic linked to Order, as opposed to the more Chaotis Cruàc), but they need some suitable location to wield Theban Sorcery and fuse it with their first draft of rules (probably something as basic as "No more Princes") and choose the Rue Saint Paul, because it's a Wyrm's Nest/Infrastructure (depending on how involved you want the God Machine to be)
                    d) They execute their insane mix of Theban Sorcery and prototypal Carthian Law, but something goes horribly wrong (or really right depending of the PoV - the God Machine may be quite please by the Nameless, who hinders Vampire while its Angels don't have to deal with too many plots from the Kindred here) and not only do they indeed manage to impose a bastardized Carthian Law on the town, they also summon an Exile (like in the Actual Play of D:tD with the Butcher, who is a monstrous Exile, summoned/altered by an Infrastructure designed for this)
                    e) The Nameless, being bound by both Carthian Law and Theban Sorcery can only be destroyed by using both, but needs the Law to be sustainable so it uses its powers (not unlike the Embeds and Exploits of Demons) to prevent anyone from using the Theban Sorcery in its territory and it makes new Rules to be sustained by them, with less loopholes than "No More Princes"
                    f) The Natives don't fear him because they know it's a creature of Order and thus predictable, but that by its very nature, a "Beastless Kindred" in the eyes of some, it'll attracts the Birds of Dis in numbers never seen before, sooner or later, which makes them very afraid

                    It's probably absolutely not that, but I can't help but think about it in that way.

                    Edit : and if the Nameless is supposed to be entirely vampiric in origin... Almost all the same events could happen, only instead of summoning an Exile, the Carthien have a freak accident where they are destroyed but a new entity is born from their collective minds and Beasts. A sort of Ephemeral being fundamentaly at odds with the Strixes since it's a creature of pure Order.

                    As a side note, I believe that the Rule VII is that the Nameless has to upheld the other six to endure. After all, law is only powerful for as long as people cannot oppose or flout it openly without consequences. If, for whatever reason, the Nameless can't punish those who defy its rules quickly enough, it may simply unravel, if it's its Bane.
                    Last edited by Ur-Than; 05-14-2020, 11:13 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ur-Than View Post
                      Okay so... I'm far from fluent in Vampire : The Requiem 2e (I'm still waiting for my paper version of the French translation!) but reading this thread had got me thinking... Do Carthians even truly understand how Carthian Law works ?

                      After all, there seems to be some real emphasis on Order under the law. An imposed Order, but one nonetheless. And we know that the God-Machine likes Order - one it wants to uphold as it deems fit, but still... And it had Angels to do his biding. So what if the Nameless was a perfect storm of events which led to the creation of a Stigmatic Carthian Law ? I imagine that something like this happened :

                      a) The Carthians in the city discover/learn about Carthian Law but realize that they can't impose it until they rule Montreal with the certitude that they won't be overthrown easily.
                      b) A sub-group of the Movement decides to try and bypass it, reasoning that if they can somehow impose Carthian Law before taking over, then they would naturally ascend to power, being the ones upheld by the Law
                      c) They seek out ways of making it happens and discover a defector from the Lance/an ancient cache of Theban Sorcery (the Blood Magic linked to Order, as opposed to the more Chaotis Cruàc), but they need some suitable location to wield Theban Sorcery and fuse it with their first draft of rules (probably something as basic as "No more Princes") and choose the Rue Saint Paul, because it's a Wyrm's Nest/Infrastructure (depending on how involved you want the God Machine to be)
                      d) They execute their insane mix of Theban Sorcery and prototypal Carthian Law, but something goes horribly wrong (or really right depending of the PoV - the God Machine may be quite please by the Nameless, who hinders Vampire while its Angels don't have to deal with too many plots from the Kindred here) and not only do they indeed manage to impose a bastardized Carthian Law on the town, they also summon an Exile (like in the Actual Play of D:tD with the Butcher, who is a monstrous Exile, summoned/altered by an Infrastructure designed for this)
                      e) The Nameless, being bound by both Carthian Law and Theban Sorcery can only be destroyed by using both, but needs the Law to be sustainable so it uses its powers (not unlike the Embeds and Exploits of Demons) to prevent anyone from using the Theban Sorcery in its territory and it makes new Rules to be sustained by them, with less loopholes than "No More Princes"
                      f) The Natives don't fear him because they know it's a creature of Order and thus predictable, but that by its very nature, a "Beastless Kindred" in the eyes of some, it'll attracts the Birds of Dis in numbers never seen before, sooner or later, which makes them very afraid

                      It's probably absolutely not that, but I can't help but think about it in that way.

                      Edit : and if the Nameless is supposed to be entirely vampiric in origin... Almost all the same events could happen, only instead of summoning an Exile, the Carthien have a freak accident where they are destroyed but a new entity is born from their collective minds and Beasts. A sort of Ephemeral being fundamentaly at odds with the Strixes since it's a creature of pure Order.

                      As a side note, I believe that the Rule VII is that the Nameless has to upheld the other six to endure. After all, law is only powerful for as long as people cannot oppose or flout it openly without consequences. If, for whatever reason, the Nameless can't punish those who defy its rules quickly enough, it may simply unravel, if it's its Bane.
                      A well thought out theory that explains most of the factors we know. I don’t think we have any other suggestions that explains this much.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post

                        A well thought out theory that explains most of the factors we know. I don’t think we have any other suggestions that explains this much.
                        Thanks !

                        But in truth, it's entirely based on the previous contributions of the thread, which inspired me, the current Ulule campaign to have the Demon the Descent corebook translated in French and thus the articles on this website, which have driven my mind into overdrive.

                        And to be frank, I'm not entirely satisfied here. The Ordo Dracul has also been hinted (in this thread) to be involved somehow, but I don't find a satisfying way to incorporate them. Were they directly involved (as in, a defector/spy in the bunch of Vampires who may have unwittingly created the Nameless) or indirectly tied to those events (because they actually wanted to study the effects of such a ritual, to potential replicate it on a smaller scale on themselves later) ?

                        Is the Nameless the result of Coils of the Dragon, Theban Sorcery and Carthian Law mixed together, or am i totally wrong about it all (I'd rather bet on the latter option, by the way) ?

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                        • You put everything together nicely so you get positive feedback.
                          The problem with it being a little bit of everything is that means more people who can notice a clue and the Dragons are the sort that might investigate something that involves the Nameless without actually being inclined to go that step further and investigate the Nameless itself. I’m now picturing the Nameless being baffled by a Dragon questioning it about how everything is set up and being unable to harm the Dragon because they’re genuinely not investigating the Nameless just trying to understand the way it was made.

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                          • Another thought exercise for this thread. What is the Nameless was a herald of Contagion? How would other splats perceive it?

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                            • So I noticed a fun pattern of important events happening every century in XX34 or XX35 in Montreal. Figured I would use it for my Montreal campaign, so you guys could to.
                              1535: Jacques Cartier is the first European to arrive at Hochelaga, the future site of Montreal.
                              1635: Jerome le Royer de la Dauversiere and Jean-Jacques Olier share a mystical dream vision that convinces them to create a colony on the island Cartier named Montreal.
                              1734: The Burning of Montreal, as I described above, with the scapegoating, torture and execution of Black slave Marie Joseph Angelique and the disappearance of Claude Thibault. Also around this time the Tsihstekeri decimate the French Kindred.
                              1834: Founding of the secret society "Aide-toi et le ciel t'aidera" in Montreal. This society would later become the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste. The day of its founding in 1834 is still celebrated as the Quebecois national holiday of Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day.
                              1935: The Martyrdom of Thomas Sheridan on the Cross

                              I figure all of the above dates can be modified so the REAL coinicdence all happens on XX34. So 1534, Cartier is guided away from his northern route to try the southern river. The vision's date is moved to 1634. And while 1935 is the first appearance of the Nameless, it had been watching since it's blasphemous "birth" in 1934.

                              Begs the question: what will happen in 2034, eh?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
                                So I noticed a fun pattern of important events happening every century in XX34 or XX35 in Montreal. Figured I would use it for my Montreal campaign, so you guys could to.
                                1535: Jacques Cartier is the first European to arrive at Hochelaga, the future site of Montreal.
                                1635: Jerome le Royer de la Dauversiere and Jean-Jacques Olier share a mystical dream vision that convinces them to create a colony on the island Cartier named Montreal.
                                1734: The Burning of Montreal, as I described above, with the scapegoating, torture and execution of Black slave Marie Joseph Angelique and the disappearance of Claude Thibault. Also around this time the Tsihstekeri decimate the French Kindred.
                                1834: Founding of the secret society "Aide-toi et le ciel t'aidera" in Montreal. This society would later become the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste. The day of its founding in 1834 is still celebrated as the Quebecois national holiday of Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day.
                                1935: The Martyrdom of Thomas Sheridan on the Cross

                                I figure all of the above dates can be modified so the REAL coinicdence all happens on XX34. So 1534, Cartier is guided away from his northern route to try the southern river. The vision's date is moved to 1634. And while 1935 is the first appearance of the Nameless, it had been watching since it's blasphemous "birth" in 1934.

                                Begs the question: what will happen in 2034, eh?
                                I really like this! Thanks for sharing!

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