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  • Cold manipulating Discipline ideas appreciated.

    Hello all, Korogra here with a request for all of you, Ever since I've first read the core book for Vampire: The Requiem I have always been sad that there hasn't been a Discipline based off of the unnatural cold that often is attributed to vampires and the life sucking frost that often forms upon living things that are in close proximity to them in many myths. While the Caporetti captured this to an extent, I always felt that this power over the cold of undeath should be a common power to all Kindred in the form of a Discipline, though sadly I'm not entirely sure how to go about it. But if you all are willing to help offer ideas, I would appreciate it immensely. You guys have always been a great help before, and I know you won't let me down now. As always, thanks much and have a great and wonderful day!

  • #2
    Well let's see what springs to my mind.
    1st dot: Aura of cold. Gives your enemies penalties to movement/mental/some physical actions (because it's a lot colder and you can't concentrate too much. Penalty is probably equal to discipline dots. This would be bread and butter power used to give everyone else penalties (except for you, obviously). May be used in all sorts of situations (mental/social/combat).
    2nd dot. Touch of frost. With a touch you can try to frost a target, which basically freezes them in a similar manner to Aura cold, however the penalties are equal to successes rolled (rolled with -Stamina, most likely) and costs Vitae. This should be balanced in such a way that it gives bigger penalties to the target (at the cost of vitae and actually having to touch the target).
    3rd dot. Improves aura of cold. 1 vitae. It get's so cold that all the surfaces around actually get frosted/iced. The conditions get a lot more slippery. And cold. Situational modifiers and bonuses ensue. Also, passively this power makes the vampire immune to slipping on ice (unless he chooses to).
    4th dot. Frostbite: Dunno bout costs, but should be at least 2 vitae. Basically with a touch you frostbite your opponent (google Frostbite for what that does.. OUCH). Inflicting lethal damage to humans and bashing damage to vampires. (or perhaps vitae loss for vampires..).
    5th dot. Not sure about this one.. Creating Ice armor? Creating icy haven? Freezing whole buildings ? Not sure..


    This one is perhaps a little too combat oriented.. I'm not sure. 5th dot should probably be something non combat based.

    And in a "full writeup" 1st-3rd dot's non-combat usages should be emphasised.

    Actually, I like this A LOT. Guess I'll do a full writeup for this discipline once I get the time (within several days). I'll take into account any advice/feedback from this thread.
    Or, Korogra, if you feel like it, you can do it . (if you like my ideas at all)


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Griautis View Post
      Well let's see what springs to my mind.
      1st dot: Aura of cold. Gives your enemies penalties to movement/mental/some physical actions (because it's a lot colder and you can't concentrate too much. Penalty is probably equal to discipline dots. This would be bread and butter power used to give everyone else penalties (except for you, obviously). May be used in all sorts of situations (mental/social/combat).
      2nd dot. Touch of frost. With a touch you can try to frost a target, which basically freezes them in a similar manner to Aura cold, however the penalties are equal to successes rolled (rolled with -Stamina, most likely) and costs Vitae. This should be balanced in such a way that it gives bigger penalties to the target (at the cost of vitae and actually having to touch the target).
      3rd dot. Improves aura of cold. 1 vitae. It get's so cold that all the surfaces around actually get frosted/iced. The conditions get a lot more slippery. And cold. Situational modifiers and bonuses ensue. Also, passively this power makes the vampire immune to slipping on ice (unless he chooses to).
      4th dot. Frostbite: Dunno bout costs, but should be at least 2 vitae. Basically with a touch you frostbite your opponent (google Frostbite for what that does.. OUCH). Inflicting lethal damage to humans and bashing damage to vampires. (or perhaps vitae loss for vampires..).
      5th dot. Not sure about this one.. Creating Ice armor? Creating icy haven? Freezing whole buildings ? Not sure..


      This one is perhaps a little too combat oriented.. I'm not sure. 5th dot should probably be something non combat based.

      And in a "full writeup" 1st-3rd dot's non-combat usages should be emphasised.

      Actually, I like this A LOT. Guess I'll do a full writeup for this discipline once I get the time (within several days). I'll take into account any advice/feedback from this thread.
      Or, Korogra, if you feel like it, you can do it . (if you like my ideas at all)
      I like what your idea has going. I would be honored to see a full write up from you, and even if it isn't what I wouldn't like (which I seriously doubt, your past works are often really enjoyable), I would have something to base my own ideas on, tweaking and building upon what you'd create, so win win!

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      • #4
        Well, this is my working copy. I don't really like how much "combat" focused it is, so I'd love some feedback how to make it "less combat". (unless you guys think it's ok.. maybe i'm just overthinking this...).
        Also still need suggestions what the 5th dot might be. I would like this power to be more utility based.

        And here's the link to my working copy: LINK.

        Also, note: I'm imagining this as an actual drops in temperature and not just illusions.

        EDIT: I also need to "fluff up" the descriptions, because right now they are pretty bare and mechanical. If anyone has suggestions about that, feel free to post

        EDIT2: I've also didn't consider the balance of the discipline yet. It looks like killing mortals is quite easy with this one (but a vampire with almost any discipline can easily dispatch of mortals..). Anyways, looking feedback for possible balance as well.
        Last edited by Griautis; 01-20-2014, 07:40 AM.


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        • #5
          I'm going to try to come up with my own version of this. Be back once I do. The first few dots will probably be mind-affecting, as Vampires in this universe tend to have powers that are less esoteric than actively taking control of the thermodynamic system and/or matter and changing it. That seems more the area of Blood Sorcery to me. That said, the 4th dot is supposed to be the "pinnacle" of what you could logically do, and the 5th one is "what, he can do that?!" so actual temperature control as a "WTF!" factor seem good there.

          Concerning Griautis's discipline: I find a -3 to -5 to all actions (at 5 dots) to be way too strong an effect, especially for something that costs just 0 to 1 vitae dependent on what kind of opponent you have, and affects pretty much all your enemies. Your 1 discipline is cancelling out all of your opponent's passive vigour effects, for instance, and you're even getting a -5 to all discipline rolls (!!!). I don't really like how strong that is. The obvious option is to learn Frigus to protect against Frigus, but I don't like that sort of design either. Finally, I don't like how much the power treats humans different from Kindred. Most disciplines have only small or no difference between the two (I think Nightmare is the only one that ever discriminates, and only in a minor way). The difference usually is that Kindred get BP to defend, and that's about it.

          As for things I like, I think making it so that the later powers mostly work off of the first power, as per B&S standards, was a wise decision.
          Last edited by Unahim; 01-20-2014, 11:08 AM.

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          • #6
            Well, I do agree, that some of those things are really strong and the costs need to be adjusted/powers changed. But for first iteration I went with "let's make it cool first. we'll hit it with nerf bat later". As for different effects for mortals/kindred, well I think it's really logical, because Kindred are almost unaffected by cold conditions, until cold begins to mess up with molecular level (I don't know how long the temperature must get for that.. anyone with more science dots than me can elaborate on this). Because of this, I really do believe that the effects should differ.

            As for, mental powers vs actually changing the temperature, Caporetti themselves drop the temperature by the mere of being here (in short, they have a weak version of Aura of Cold as their bloodline discipline) so I don't really want to make this into "mental illusion discipline limited to imitating coldness", because Nightmare can do that already. It could easily create illusions where you feel cold (the illusions there are often limited to 1-2 senses.. why not sight (for frozen looks, frosty breath) and touch (for feeling cold). Basically I can simply take Nightmare as it is already, and flavour all my illusions into cold (later dots attacking with frost/etc) into a mental version of cold powers already.

            So yeah, i'm sticking to physical representation of cold powers. With some devotions to nightmare to make this really terrifying.

            As for the effects, please do offer more suggestions on what should I change.

            Also, about balanse. If it costs 0 then you're up against a mortal. With 5 dots of a discipline a mortal shouldn't pose a threat to you unless you're overpowered. Of course, the price might need to be adjusted.
            As for discipline effects those could be exempt..
            Well in any case, still looking for suggestions on how to tweak the powers. I do agree that nerfs are probably needed, but I'm not sure how to implement them exactly.
            Perhaps, Touch of shadow shouldn't give penalties, (let's leave that to Aura) but simply for vampires freeze their vitae (with some scaling with successes (turns it's frozen) and mortals freezing, perhaps to death?
            Aura of Bitter Frost, well, it takes two turns to activate it, in which another might do quite a lot of bad things to the vampire. Perhaps a cost increase is in order? Increasing it to two, might mean, that on the first turn the vampire turns on Aura of Cold (and spends the first vitae to power Aura of Bitter Frost)and on the second turn turns that on. His enemy has two turns in which to act, and two free vitae. Dunno, opinions?


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            • #7
              I'm just writing my own version right now, so I'll work that out before goign too deep into specific suggestions, as the possibility exists I'd just get distracted by my own vision and try to turn your version into mine, which is silly. As for the "5 dot powers = mortals no threat"... it's sort of true, but:

              Consider you're up against three or so mortals.

              Vigor 5: +5 to your to-hit, and possible damage increase for 1 vitae. You probably will not one-shot without a vitae use, so that's 3 vitae for this fight. Your defenses are unaltered, so you'll take 5-6 attacks at your normal dodginess, likely getting wounds that need to be healed.
              Resilience 5: You likely won't take any damage so long as you use 1 vitae/turn, but you still might. You'll also need more turns to dispatch the enemy than in the vigour example. For simplicity, let's double it. That's 6 vitae in this fight + potential healing, though that healing will likely be less than the vigour example.
              Celerity 5: You have a +5 to defense, which is nice. You're not likely to use interruptions much, since they take your turns. Maybe if you can dodge and attack in the same action, then you'd take 1/turn to dodge one attack, coming down to 6 vitae, but hopefully your defense will have avoided most other attacks and you'll have as little or just slightly more healing to do as the resilience one.

              Frigus: They all get -5, so you equal the Celerity discipline in that right off the bat. If the enemy chooses not to use direct attacks against you, they still get negatives, unlike Celerity. For one vitae they'll also start to fall over when they are moving. That will probably even out to about as many attacks dodged as Celerity, but for one vitae. You're basically outperforming the physical disciplines at combat.

              Granted, the imbalance isn't as big as I first thought. Celerity is quite close to similar, and is better in some situations (it doesn't hamper allies, but then again, also doesn't help them). The price of "free" for something that hampers -every- roll is just a bit cheap.
              Last edited by Unahim; 01-20-2014, 01:10 PM.

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              • #8
                Well, I changed Touch of Frost to require Aura of Cold and Frostbite to require Aura of Bitter Frost, which means, that Frigus will take longer. You'll have to spend time to activate the aura's, so for touch of frost, you'll sepnd 2 turns. For Frostbite, you'll spend four turns(3 turns if you've got 2bp) and three vitae (obviously, if you continue to use Frostbite, it will only take 2turn/2vitae(1turn/t\2vitae with bp2) each, however that's bunch of time, in which another discipline's user (and another combatant) can mess the vampire pretty badly.
                With this new limitation (Which I find quite awesome, actually. because now you don't get random freezes to death out of nowhere..) the discipline is a lot weaker. Basically, it's like a blizzard now. Slower to build up but very powerful once it get's there.

                Also I've decided to go with Stamina for it's Attribute roll, because the discipline just feels like it belongs to someone tough. Not sure which skill to apply to Touch of Frost thought. Brawl?

                Also, still need suggestions for 5th dot. To get more utility into this.


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                • #9
                  Alright, I've finished it. I've taken some inspiration from Griautis, and other things ended up slightly similar because, well, it's frost, cold and slowing things, what does one expect to happen?

                  First, I'll go into my thinking a little bit deeper.

                  I've said that I think mind-affecting is a better fit for Vampire, to which Griaitus responded that there is a Bloodline that drops the cold. That's all well and good, but the OP asked for a general discipline, and giving such a power to all Kindred (as opposed to just one Bloodline) would severely change the tone and nature of the vampiric condition, in my opinion. It comes too close to "magic", and we have Blood Sorcery for that.

                  At first glance a mostly mind-affecting power that uses cold might seem similar to Nightmare, but the similarity is superficial at best, especially in my version. First of all, Nightmare creates fear, this version does not. It is cold and calculating (logical, not emotional) and focused on slowing down things (even emotions), not causing more emotions. It is also capable of eventually making "true" cold, while Nightmare is always a mind affecting Discipline and only that. Nightmare will definitely not do anything this Discipline could do. My version of Fringus (using cold in a logical way, counter to emotions and with a physical side) is at most as similar to Nightmare (potentially using cold as a scare tactic illusion) as Majesty is to Dominate, which both take control from a target, but one through emotions, the other through thoughts, except that in that example it is the goal that is the same and the tools that are different, while in fringus vs nightmare it's the goal that is different and the tools that are, superficially, similar.

                  So without further ado: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...zKahVwMuE/edit

                  I'll lay out the thought proces behind the powers.

                  Chill of the Grave: I thought Griaitus's first dot power was a good concept, but too strong. By making it fade round by round, we distance it further from the power of things such as Celerity, giving us more room to add more effects later on without making it a "Combat Discipline+". As it is a mind affecting effect, the Lashing Out rule has been added. Powers like Majesty, Nightmare, etc... have no clear range indicators in this system, so I've refrained from a "bpx10 meters" range or anything similar, as that does not seem to be a standard practice in the rule system, and i strive for internal consistency. Some limited functionality outside of combat has also been built in. The power is set up as having both a physical and mental application, and both sides are expanded with powers later. (Though the physical gets more focus as we go further on)

                  Brain Freeze: This is the continuation of the Chill power down the mental path. It offers out of combat applications that are pretty unique amongst the disciplines we currently have, and should be very fun to roleplay. Applications could include using it to protect a ghoul from being messed with by rivals, using it on someone you know a rival needs to convince later that night, and so on. It is a potent but situational tool, kept in line by the enormous drawback associated with it. It's one of those things that I feel rewards creative thinking, without being too powerful or being applicable to every situation. In some chronicles it may even never be applicable, but then that's the nature of the game. In any chronicle with a hint of political scheming and the like, it should see good use, and cause some fun situations.

                  Touch of Ice: It would not surprise me if this one was seen as too powerful at first glance, but hear me out. First of all, the vampire must have Chill of the Grave active and be close. This means most powerful vampires and the like have amble time to Lash Out before you use this, and once they do it is no longer applicable. You also need to touch them, further complicating things. Even when you do touch, the effects of halved vitae per turn aren't as bad as they may appear. It comes down to halving the bonuses they can get from healing/physical intensity in the short run (but not the long run!), but doesn't truly slow anyone above BP4 or so down much. At BP4 you'll still be able to use most any discipline in 1 turn, or use 2 physical disciplines, and so on. At BP2 you can still use 1 physical discipline per turn, so that's not too bad either. The BP1 neonate is perhaps hit the hardest, but even for him it only comes down to a halving of certain -bonuses-. Average of +1 per turn from physical intensity instead of +2/turn, for instance. With the hurdles one might have to jump to get this into play, it might even end up being underpowered.

                  Against humans it's pretty damn potent, but you still need to touch (which might fail! You get no bonuses to touch attempts after all) and it's only 1 target. Together with the degrading effects of Chill during combat, combat disciplines still pull ahead, which is ideal for a discipline which does more than combat.

                  Crystalize: Scary once it starts to effect you, but it has all rights to be after how many warnings of "this is coming" you've gotten. Even then you have time to end the vampire before it ends you, especially since vigour can one-shot these days.

                  Fimbulwinter: is awesome. Imo!

                  I think the 3rd and 4th dot might end up being a bit too weak, actually, with how easy it is to avoid and considering the strengths of the combat disciplines. Then again, if you focus on its strengths (the slowing portion against melee combatants, for instance) it might work. Frost slowly grinds you down, rather than kill outright. Thoughts?

                  (If a change towards more power were needed, it would probably focus on making Touch usable without Chill in perhaps a lesser way, so that one lashing Out doesn't cancel the ability to use 3 of the powers on a target)
                  Last edited by Unahim; 01-20-2014, 03:01 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I enjoy both versions of this Discipline very much, and actually can't help by seeming powers from both being present in the Discipline with a little tweaking of course. Hm.. you know what, I think have enough inspiration to try writing a version of this myself. I think to make it interesting, I believe I will make it more of a defensive and "draining" take on the idea than these two versions instead of primarily incapacitation in order to provide yet more of an variation of possible theme and such. I'll write it up as soon as possible.

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                    • #11
                      Sounds good! This certainly is turning out to be a fun thread so far. I love it when multiple people get together to show their take on a topic, since nobody is ever really wrong! Even any criticism I've leveled is purely a matter of taste, and by showing my own take, I hope that it also qualifies as constructive.

                      edit: I've changed some parts of the discipline, mainly made it mind-affecting all the way through, made it less easy to sabotage the entire discipline's combat potential with one lashing out, and changed the fifth dot to be less deadly, but a bit more subtle.
                      Last edited by Unahim; 01-20-2014, 09:29 PM.

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                      • #12
                        well sabotaging a mental discipline with one lash out is pretty logical. After all, you turn off whole majesty, large parts of obfuscate/nightmare with just a lash out.

                        I really liked your version (even more than my own(but it mgiht be descriptions. Perhaps I'll steal some of your discipline into mine.. :P )) and it being turned off by a lash out seemed like a plus


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                        • #13
                          Hmm, guess we can keep them as tightly connected as they are, then. At least with the dicerolls being based off of Intelligence, your priorities for Discipline rolls and Lash Out defense are mostly in line with each other.

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                          • #14
                            Since I really liked Unahim's version, I took it and modified it to my liking. (Proper credits to Unahim are given at the start). Also I've written what I'm modifying. Here's the LINK.
                            I'm not sure if Chill of the Grave should give a -2 penalty, or if it should also scale with Frigus dots.
                            I'm not sure if Brain Freeze perhaps might give too big social penalties. Perhaps the name is not appropriate, suggesting that mental stats might be affected? Any better ideas for the name?
                            I'm not sure if I like Fimbulwinter, but since I've got no "better" idea (read an idea which I prefer more than this one) i'm keeping it here.
                            And I'm copy pasting the modifications here:
                            Chill of the Grave: also penalises surprise roll detection (after all, if it’s hard to pull yourself towards action, it’s hard to notice stuff too)
                            Chill of the Grave: added a possibility for the vampire to designate herself as the source of cold.
                            Brain Freeze: Redone quite heavily, because I don’t like this “freezing of emotions” effect. Mostly because it could make a man be happy forever and similarly "uncold emotions”. Especially because “Cold” also has the meaning of: lacking in passion, emotion, enthusiasm. Made the effect more along the lines of this definition.
                            Frostbite: Changed Crystalize name to Frostbite
                            Frostbite: Added, that Frozen Mind condition can also be appropriate. Depending on the condition on the target, he either rolls Resolve or Stamina to resist. If the target has both conditions, he gains -2 to resist the damage.

                            (p.s. if Unahim minds me using his work, then just tell me about it, and i'll kill the link)
                            Last edited by Griautis; 01-23-2014, 04:45 AM.


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                            • #15
                              I don't mind at all. Being credited is as much as anyone could ask for in these homebrew scenarios, I think

                              I really like the idea of letting "Frostbite" (which is a good name for it) affect people with either one of the conditions, and changing the resistance rolls accordingly. The changes to Chill of the Grave likewise make sense.

                              The only point where we disagree is Brain Freeze, I guess I really just see it as freezing someone in the moment, so everything, emotions, thoughts, etc, are still there, but just trapped in a block of ice, so to speak. I enjoy the variety of situations I can come up with to use my version, with it both seeming appropriate to use on allies as well as enemies, with both having some drawbacks. In your version, the social penalties limit the situations where you could use it on your own ghouls somewhat, and even placing it on third parties (like, say, the mayor a rival of yours is going to try to persuade later that night) becomes a bit more obvious, as the negative social modifiers probably shine through in a conversation a lot more clearly than someone just seeming really, really stubborn.

                              That said, I have no true mechanical concerns about your take on that power. It works just fine. Brain Freeze is just my favourite power of the bunch, so I'm very biased towards it :3 So yeah, I think my version will incorporate those changes too. We could quite easily make one version that just gives the storyteller a choice between which condition he wants to use in his game for the second dot.

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