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  • #31
    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
    I believe they mean the fact that you handle Beats during the game according to certain events as opposed of giving experiences at the end of the session. Some people may find that that breaks the flow of or slows down the game.
    I don't see the problem. Other game systems have been giving in session experience for decades.
    Hell Chaosium , one of the oldest game systems out there has had skill checks since the beginning. You marked those as you got them.

    I don't like group xp. It feels like social promotion to me. Why should someone who doesn't really do anything other than show up and not engage in the game get the same reward as everyone else?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by Chattnos View Post
      I don't like group xp. It feels like social promotion to me. Why should someone who doesn't really do anything other than show up and not engage in the game get the same reward as everyone else?
      The only time I've really seen people not engage at a private tabletop game are when a significant other gets brought along who is more interested in spending time with their partner as opposed to the game itself. Otherwise, people usually want to engage but don't necessarily know how, either because of rules ignorance, because of newness to the group, because of a softer personality, etc.

      Group beats have actually been a boon for me in helping those softer type of players get engaged. The proactive, aggressive, advancement-minded role-player can be gung ho about collecting their beats pretty quickly, and its a great incentive for them. Group beats switch that advancement incentive from "Let me do all these things to get my beats and then step out of the way" to "Every time a beat is given, 1/xth of it is mine."

      I've enjoyed seeing those active players realize that it is both mechanically strategic AND dramatically interesting to get the more passive players to collect their beats, so it keeps them invested in the group dynamic. It also allows them to act as a mentor or sounding board for fulfilling aspirations, conditions or taking dramatic failures when they might hesitate to go out on a limb on their own.

      Obviously if a player is truly being a bump-on-the-log do-nothing type, that's not good. And yes, you don't want to necessarily reward people for actually doing nothing. I guess I just don't see those types of players much outside of LARP or pickup games where I probably wouldn't use group beats, or beats at all (LARP).

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      • #33
        My group has abandoned Aspirations altogether. They were taking between thirty and forty minutes each session for people to rework them, and most of the time the game would go in it's own direction. To get the beats the players ended up either having to yank the rest of the group into some situation and away from the current crisis, or the game turned into a round robin session of one-on-one RPG sessions as people rush around trying to get their beats in.

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        • #34
          Group Beats have been wonderful in my groups games, we found when we were not using them that the players who were more adept at going after their goals got more beats and it got a bit insane, also it was often difficult to remember when you should get a beat or not, having a bin where everyone puts a beat into when they get it has made it easier (aside form the inevitable blowup if someone seems o fish around as a player worries about jiggery pokey... but thats neither here nor there)

          As to aspirations, I have one very important piece of advice, remember that they are not "Character aspirations" but "Player aspirations" they are the key method used to tell a storyteller the things you are looking forward to in game and the types of stories you are trying to tell. At the beginning of game i ask all my players their aspirations and write them down, Then usually i take a few moments to bounce those off of my general plan for the story and see which branches hold up best.

          As to writing Aspirations, Be very generic, give the ST'er as much room as possible For Example, in a WtF game I was playing, i had my aspirations in my head, and was writing them down, one was to find the werewolf that we had fought with at the edge of our territory the game before, but as the hammer was swinging down, i wrote for my aspiration "Find Werewolf" the game shifted tone and we spent an amount of time in the Hisil fighting an owl spirit that had waylaid me earlier, and never even started looking for that werewolf, however, on the way, we ran into a friendly pack from a different border, I double-checked at the end of game with the story-teller (we hold aspirations until the end of the chapter, which makes it a bit easier and helps do a quick run-down of what was accomplished and keeps us from pausing game) and he said, well yeah, you did "Find werewolf" even if not the one you were looking for...

          Remember, Player Advancement is not a bad thing to a chronicle, Reward players for good roleplaying sessions, Aspirations and beats make this a way that you can bring players into the story and move the action along, not hinder it.

          Tl;Dr:
          Group Beats
          General Player Aspirations
          Be Broad in Apsirations
          Get Beats Build Experiences,

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Hackthulhu View Post

            Tl;Dr:
            Group Beats
            General Player Aspirations
            Be Broad in Apsirations
            Get Beats Build Experiences,
            Profit

            Sorry, I had too.



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            • #36
              So, I've recently run into a situation where I'm not sure Beats will be appropriate for a game I'll be running. I've got a group of new players (one has played a little bit of D&D before, but they're all very new to RPGs), who are very excited to try a one-shot paranormal investigation game for Halloween, so I've agreed to run a short WoD story for them. If they enjoy it, there is a possibility of some or all of them continuing as a more regular group, so I'll be including some seeds for a longer chronicle in this first adventure, but still writing it to be a satisfying and complete experience on its own.

              The problem is, what to do about Beats? Since this may or may not end up being a one and done game, there's no guarantee their Beats will ever be useful to them. I could award Willpower instead, but as new players I'm not sure if they'll find that appealing enough to want to resolve things like Shaken and Spooked. Any ideas? Anyone else have experience running one-shot stories in 2e?


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              • #37
                Maybe give them a small list of merits to choose from per character, and then use beats but allow them the second they get 5 beats buy one of the merits? It depends somewhat on how long of a session you are planning, but if your story would/could grant more than a whole experience a player, you can show off a bit of the advancement section which usually will grab gamers by the nose and have them follow the direction you want them to go :P

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hackthulhu View Post
                  Maybe give them a small list of merits to choose from per character, and then use beats but allow them the second they get 5 beats buy one of the merits? It depends somewhat on how long of a session you are planning, but if your story would/could grant more than a whole experience a player, you can show off a bit of the advancement section which usually will grab gamers by the nose and have them follow the direction you want them to go :P
                  Oh, I like that idea. Maybe give a little disclaimer that normally I'd have them spend experiences between sessions, but since this is going to be a short game I'll let them spend it right away to get a taste for how advancement works. Thanks!


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                  • #39
                    I also think that the Beats system is awful. Terrible idea. Too much micromanage and too much metagaming in the aspirations. Just use the old system but give beats instead of EXP points, because the stats are flat now, no longer current rating x n. So you need to give less experience per game

                    One note, the statement that "giving beats for dramatic failure is to be an incentive to players to make their failures dramatic" is complete BS! This is just a workaround of the system to allow dramatic failures to simply happen! Otherwise, it would be very rare, you have to have zero dice pool to have a dramatic failure. White Wolf always were very bad at system design. Wonderful stories and settings, but terrible systems.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SpiritSponge View Post
                      Love the 2E rules compared to 1E except for 1 thing...beats. I don't like the idea of micromanaging experience when I'm running a game, got too much to think of already. Is there an alternate system anyone uses for experience other than beats? Will there be another optional system in the 2E world of darkness book when it comes out?
                      Just give 1-2 XP per session.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                        I also think that the Beats system is awful. Terrible idea. Too much micromanage and too much metagaming in the aspirations. Just use the old system but give beats instead of EXP points, because the stats are flat now, no longer current rating x n. So you need to give less experience per game

                        One note, the statement that "giving beats for dramatic failure is to be an incentive to players to make their failures dramatic" is complete BS! This is just a workaround of the system to allow dramatic failures to simply happen! Otherwise, it would be very rare, you have to have zero dice pool to have a dramatic failure. White Wolf always were very bad at system design. Wonderful stories and settings, but terrible systems.

                        I think their system is just fine with a few minor tweaks. I agree that beats are terrible and it takes too much micromanaging and there is too much metagaming. And if you have someone particularly inclined... they just abuse the system entirely and suddenly they have like 100 beats for really stupid shit..


                        I am with Gallus. As long as my players progressed the story, I give 1-2 EXP per session played.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                          Oh, I like that idea. Maybe give a little disclaimer that normally I'd have them spend experiences between sessions, but since this is going to be a short game I'll let them spend it right away to get a taste for how advancement works. Thanks!
                          For One-Shots, I really liked that earlier suggestion about Beats being gained and spent to re-roll dice. It's a powerful commodity, then.

                          In addition, I never liked Beats and gaining EXP in general for One-Shots. It always seemed easier to have loosely planned 'intervals' in the narrative when you either give the group a set amount of EXP to spend in the case of time lapses.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Vitalis View Post


                            I think their system is just fine with a few minor tweaks. I agree that beats are terrible and it takes too much micromanaging and there is too much metagaming. And if you have someone particularly inclined... they just abuse the system entirely and suddenly they have like 100 beats for really stupid shit..


                            I am with Gallus. As long as my players progressed the story, I give 1-2 EXP per session played.
                            Yes, the old ways were better. In the last session, i forgot that every time a vampire in Requiem Frenzys, it gets a beat. So, i missed a lot of beats for my player. Also, as soon as they realized this, they try all the time to frenzy when it's convenient, for example, in a fight when they are sure they will win, etc. Its just terrible. And my god the conditions..... terrible terrible ideas.

                            About the systems, i also thought like you before, but once you taste the better refined and created systems, its hard to look back. I know people will get on me for this, but GURPS is excellent. Everything works there, the system is very thought out and constructed. We still play with white wolf systems because its just easier to start up a game instead of adapting all the rules. But do take a look, just for curiosity on Vampire The Masquerade/Werewolf etc. for GURPS and you will see that all the problems of those games were solved there.

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                            • #44
                              That's is hardly a problem of the system and all a fault of the players and Storyteller. No rule survives contatc with what amounts to douches.If they want to game the system they will, no matter what the system is.


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                              • #45
                                simple rule - beat is only generated if the source enhances the story If people are gonna start abusing frenzies just to get the beats - don't give them.
                                Or if they still want it - create complications. You just frenzied in combat for a Beat? Oh, look some innocent by standards come along.


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