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  • #46
    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
    That's is hardly a problem of the system and all a fault of the players and Storyteller. No rule survives contatc with what amounts to douches.If they want to game the system they will, no matter what the system is.

    Is it a douche if it's within the rules? I mean the rules say that you get a beat every time you frenzy, so why NOT frenzy all the time? You get a beat every time you go get a fix ( addicted ) instead of doing what the story teller says? Why not go wrack up the beats and deal with the story later? Short term aspiration, I want to go get a big mac. Done. Beat. Now I want to eat it. Done. Beat. Now I want to drive to my sister's. Done. Beat. Now she wants to get a big mac, Done. Beat.

    Ok So that's a little extreme, but within the rules. Sure people will power game and Min/max, but the beat system opened the door and said, come on in! Just take the beats out and people will make better choices because the cheese isnt there to cheese it up.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
      Ok So that's a little extreme, but within the rules.
      So is playing a mortals game and sticking a fork in an electrical socket every session to get the Beat for having your righmost Health boxes marked. The game is written to incentivize players to have their characters make otherwise "bad" decisions under the assumption that everyone involved is capable of being a mature adult that can communicate and collaborate.

      Entering frenzy requires failing the roll and going along with directives that are usually a bad idea in the immediate term, and steering that to a different goal requires risking any failure locking you into that state until you lose Humanity — a state that the game also encourages you to move toward by giving you a Beat for rolling to avoid losing Humanity and for turning a failure into a dramatic failure. Are you going to argue that every vampire immediately succumbs to long-term frenzy as well?


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        So is playing a mortals game and sticking a fork in an electrical socket every session to get the Beat for having your righmost Health boxes marked. The game is written to incentivize players to have their characters make otherwise "bad" decisions under the assumption that everyone involved is capable of being a mature adult that can communicate and collaborate.

        Entering frenzy requires failing the roll and going along with directives that are usually a bad idea in the immediate term, and steering that to a different goal requires risking any failure locking you into that state until you lose Humanity — a state that the game also encourages you to move toward by giving you a Beat for rolling to avoid losing Humanity and for turning a failure into a dramatic failure. Are you going to argue that every vampire immediately succumbs to long-term frenzy as well?

        I would say you can choose to fail the frenzy roll. ( you can't choose to go into a frenzy whenever you want unless you have the required things. ) however it's like choosing to fail anything else you just dont fight the beast. Like someone else pointed out, if you're winning the battle, you dont really need to frenzy, but they choose to just to get the beat. likely they have taken damage and that is enough to provoke a frenzy check...

        The beat system encourages stupidity and failure as it is. That is what I was saying. That is what I was agreeing with. The beat system should encourage success and exceptional ideas and creativity, not just favoring the fuck ups.

        Why would I be a more experienced mortal for sticking a fork in the electrical socket than the person who made good choices by getting out there and being 'exceptional' ?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
          I would say you can choose to fail the frenzy roll.
          The mechanics don't work that way, much like how you can't just voluntarily fail a Harmony breaking point in Werewolf. You wanna frenzy on purpose? Ride the wave and take the gamble that that failure brings to bear.

          The beat system encourages stupidity and failure as it is. That is what I was saying. That is what I was agreeing with. The beat system should encourage success and exceptional ideas and creativity, not just favoring the fuck ups.
          The system for a storytelling game covering ostensibly dramatic narratives meant to show off the characters' strengths and weaknesses does not need to encourage players to try to do well, because doing well is already the victory condition.

          "Exceptional ideas and creativity" are not quantified by the mechanics in any more meaningful way than fiat, and if they were then you would be running into the same issue you're bringing up now except with "stupidity" replaced by "checklist mentality."

          Why would I be a more experienced mortal for sticking a fork in the electrical socket than the person who made good choices by getting out there and being 'exceptional' ?
          You wouldn't, any more than you would be a more experienced vampire for frenzying constantly. You don't get a Beat for every roll you fail, period, you get a Beat for inviting complications into the story.

          What you will be, provided you lean as hard as possible into Beat criteria, is playing with higher stakes than the characters who take it slow. A vampire who frenzies constantly becomes a larger threat more rapidly and finds themselves in danger more frequently. Beats make that mode of play a tempting thing to dip into. Most vampires will not frenzy constantly and feed beyond their capacity on the regular, because their society and basic forethought recognizes the trajectory of committing to that behavioral arc.


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
            That's is hardly a problem of the system and all a fault of the players and Storyteller. No rule survives contatc with what amounts to douches.If they want to game the system they will, no matter what the system is.
            I disagree completely. If a system is faulty, the player will abuse it. If its not, the player won't be able to. Its like saying that its the players fault if the video game your are playing has low security and allows hacks, because they shouldn't abuse it. No way, the fault is with the game, that didn't plan on this.

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            • #51
              The point is, even if i put a passerby in the frenzy moment, i will have to do that everytime someone tries to frenzy on purpose. Besides, this only creates more discussion at the table, some player may think they are being treated unfairly, like im keeping them from earning beats. Thats why im against this idea that you earn experience from failures IN GAMES. If its this way, it should only be used if the failure is random, not by player control.
              Even in GURPS, there are people who buy disadvantages in the hopes that they are never brought up. But there is easier to control because its happening before the game starts.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                I disagree completely. If a system is faulty, the player will abuse it. If its not, the player won't be able to.
                Wordcount is a thing, and the amount of words necessary to make system abuse even remotely close to impossible is a prohibitively large allotment to make under the assumption of an adversarial playstyle being the norm for a game you are ostensibly playing with friends for fun.

                Its like saying that its the players fault if the video game your are playing has low security and allows hacks, because they shouldn't abuse it. No way, the fault is with the game, that didn't plan on this.
                You're not playing a video game. Video games have the inimitable resource of "the setting and mechanics are fixed in place unless you alter the game from outside." TTRPGs are run entirely by people who don't have to render a new environment in detail if they want to go off the defined path.


                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                • #53
                  At the risk of threadcapping (does it even apply to necroed ones like this?), I must exclaim,

                  Not this again.


                  MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                  • #54
                    I see your point Satchel, but even so, there are systems that are more open to abuse than others. This one is. Everyone agrees that in D&D 3.5 wizards were OP in high levels etc. There are mechanics that are simply bad ideas.

                    "are run entirely by people"

                    And thats a problem, because it leads to arguments. Arguments at the table stop the game and interrupt the flow. The more fair and good the system is, the less arguments you're gonna have. That's one of the reasons i never got into Mage The Ascension/Awakening. Too much arguments over and over again about what can i do at this level, what is vulgar or not etc. Awakening did a better job in this regard, but still ends up in a lot of arguments. In this case, the rules are open on purpose, to allow free flow of magic, so arguments is a must.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                      Its like saying that its the players fault if the video game your are playing has low security and allows hacks, because they shouldn't abuse it. No way, the fault is with the game, that didn't plan on this.
                      What's the difference between a video game hack, and a video game fan mod?

                      Simple: There isn't a structural difference. The difference is the perception of intent. Video game hacks are "bad" because they violate the implicit social contract, esp. in multiplayer games, of winning based on skill at the game. Mods are "good" because they are perceived to improve the fun of the game; esp. in single player games where what mods you use or not don't impact anyone else's play.

                      A video game "bad hack" is no different that people rules lawyering to avoid the spirit of the rules to farm Beats. It's a violation of social contract and expectations, rather than an inherent flaw in the game. If it wasn't making things unfun for someone (like all of us that are perfectly happy with the Beat rules and would prefer the proclamations of it being bad to be toned back to just being not to individuals' preferences), then it's like a mod: something you get to do to make the game yours.

                      Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                      In this case, the rules are open on purpose, to allow free flow of magic, so arguments is a must.
                      I've been playing Ascension and Awakening (and similar things like Ars Magica) for over 20 year. I can count the number of table arguments about the magic rules I've been in on one hand.

                      I have seen vast more table arguments in supposedly more tightly controlled systems precisely because they're more tightly controlled and edge cases are harder to adjudicate.

                      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                      At the risk of threadcapping (does it even apply to necroed ones like this?), I must exclaim,

                      Not this again.
                      Yeah... I have to admit I'm having flashbacks to the old "grandma with a gun" debates.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                        I see your point Satchel, but even so, there are systems that are more open to abuse than others. This one is. Everyone agrees that in D&D 3.5 wizards were OP in high levels etc. There are mechanics that are simply bad ideas.
                        Here's the thing: "You get Beats from resolving Conditions" is not geometrically-scaling class utility.

                        "Abusing" the system means the ST has more things to throw at you because you're engaging with the hazards of the setting, divesting yourself of useful advantages, and otherwise living dangerously in a setting where a large part of why the supernatural is willfully ignored by mortals is because it is volatile and dangerous.

                        The players who do not "abuse" the way Conditions are designed to work advance more slowly with the benefit being that their characters have more control over their actions and are less at risk of lasting damage.

                        And thats a problem, because it leads to arguments. Arguments at the table stop the game and interrupt the flow. The more fair and good the system is, the less arguments you're gonna have.
                        If your table is producing outcomes that are causing arguments, that is a thing you have to be on top of regardless of how experience works. Making sure everybody's expectations for the game are in line is your job, not the game's.

                        Saying "I would like you to either invest more in the things that make entering frenzy a bad idea, accept a reduced threshold or diminishing returns on getting Beats from entering frenzy, or not complain when I extend the consequences of your character entering frenzy all the time as part of the fiction" is a thing the game is giving you credit for, because it is an inanimate object that already relies on you to enforce the rules within it as part of play.

                        Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                        The beat system should encourage success and exceptional ideas and creativity, not just favoring the fuck ups.
                        To get on top of this as well:

                        The system already does this, too. It's literally the reason Promethean 2e has half of its Bestowments' effects translate to "you get an exceptional success on three successes instead of five for this category of rolls" — getting an exceptional success gives you a Condition, most commonly Inspired, which lowers the exceptional success threshold for actions relating to that inspiration.

                        You wanna advance quickly without being "a fuck up"? Hoard dice bonuses, route as much as you can through your areas of competence, and dedicate some portion of your resources to broadening the scope of "your areas of competence" — a practice which there are multiple core Merits to facilitate.

                        The quick-and-dirty road to power being notionally viable in the short term is part of the design, especially for supernatural beings, but that by no means translates to "the system only rewards you for bad decisions."
                        Last edited by Satchel; 03-06-2018, 09:51 PM.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                        • #57
                          I guess we will have to agree to disagree, i really dont think its that simple and that this xp system, including conditions, is really, really bad! If it were not for the other benefits of this second edition, i would surely give it a pass.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                            I guess we will have to agree to disagree
                            You reraised a thread from two years ago to complain about this topic.

                            Your opinion is your opinion and nobody is stopping you from having it, but if you have a problem with arguments it is generally a terrible idea to do something like that.


                            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                            • #59
                              And... I'm always kinda surprised in these things when 1e Flaws are completely ignored. 1e Flaws worked exactly like 2e Persistent Conditions... 1e's XP system encouraged you to gain XP by having negative things happen to your character to.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Zulmaran View Post
                                I guess we will have to agree to disagree, i really dont think its that simple and that this xp system, including conditions, is really, really bad! If it were not for the other benefits of this second edition, i would surely give it a pass.
                                You could have just as easily said "I don't want to regard the opinions of others" and saved us all some time here. If you raise a point of conversation about opinions without an intent to either make compelling cases that demonstrate comprehension* for people to change their minds or for you to be open to having your own mind changed, you might as well have remained silent.

                                Don't a pick fight you have to then cower away from. The very least you could do is give credit that, while you don't think that would work for your table, at least you hadn't considered these perspectives before.

                                *Should you find that your comprehension lacks, take time to consider it more fully and deeply and then resume the argumentation. Or at least lie about it.

                                Point is, if you must complain about something, at least attempt some good faith discussion.


                                Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
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