[2e] Werewolf Crossover Questions

[Scutarii]

Picture the scene. Kindred hold one section of an American city while a Werewolf pack has started moving in, claiming feeding grounds as their own territory and almost daring the Kindred to stop them. The Coterie that claims that feeding ground starts by trying to prevent the situation escalating too far - knowing full well Werewolves are both temperamental and extremely dangerous. The Coterie is BP1, 2 or 3, 2 Crone, 1 Ordo and 1 Carthian, 1 Ventrue, 1 Gangrel (Ordo, frenzy monster style), Daeva and a Mekhet.

Can you suggest - with brief examples, far too often people say 'use your political powers to win' without specifics - ways to stall out and reverse the expansion of the Werewolves without escalating too much and avoiding combat where possible.

Then, later, a Death Raging Werewolf has killed two of the Coterie's Touchstones, escalating the situation to boiling point. Now the Kindred want the Werewolves dead. Chasing them off won't be enough - an injured enemy comes back for revenge. Knowing the Werewolves can hunt them down with their fantastic senses the Kindred need a way of staying safe while launching attacks that will end with dead Werewolves...without dying themselves.

Can you suggest some approaches - with examples - how the Kindred can stay safe from these wolves while also killing them.

These Werewolves would eventually go scorched earth, destroy the Kindred at any cost etc. so violence spiral should be included in the planning.

While I've got your attention a question about mechanics.
1. Werewolf claws from their non-Hishu forms deal Lethal, or is it treated as Bashing to Kindred?
2. Can Blood Sorcery (as seen in the splat book, not just the ones in the core) affect Spirits and/or Ghosts? Any suggestions as to how?
3. When a werewolf transforms do they shift their carried stuff with them? If yes would a smartphone or other broadcasting device still be broadcasting?

[Deionscribe]

Assuming that the Werewolves have Wolf-Blooded pack members and allies, have vampires target their enemy through them. The right mix of Dominate, Majesty, Vinculum, and Vitae Addiction should give the Kindred an edge. And that's not counting in the ghouls who can act in their stead during the day.

[Elfive]

I'm pretty sure it's just their teeth that do lethal. Some sort of symbolic predator thing. Blood sorcery can probably affect the right sort of spirit, and as for carried stuff, it would definitely stay on them in Dalu. I think they can choose not to shift with stuff in the case of the other three forms (at the very least holding the item in their mouth should work) and there's always fetishes to muck around with otherwise.

[Reighnhell]

Focusing on just the mechanics

Tooth and Claw - In Werewolf 2e, it is explicitly called out that the teeth of a werewolf in every form (including Hishu) deal supernatural damage. The claws soften a target up, bit Werewolves kill with their teeth. A Vampires resistance to mundane damage would protect them from a werewolves claws in most situations. I would make exceptions for when the Werewolf uses Gifts to augment their damage (such as Crushing Blow or Rending Claws), and for when the Werewolf has gone into Basu-Im (Death Rage).

Blood Sorcery - Generally speaking, Vampire Magic focuses on channeling the Curse, and has limited capabilities to effect the Spirit world. A Vampire occultist would have to deal with ephemeral creatures using the methods and techniques available to mortal occultists [See Mortal Interaction in the Ephemeral Entities section of the appropriate books].
While they have not been updated to 2e, the Circle of the Crone book has several rituals that explicitly interact with spirits ( pages.201-204) they are considered optional, since Spirit Magic is more of a Mage or Werewolf thing.

Shifting - As of second edition, a Werewolf at most harmony levels ( 8 or less) shifts with them. Belongings in Dalu (Near Human) adjust to fit,but would be otherwise functional.Belongings in Gauru (Warform), Urshul (Near-Wolf) and Urhan (Wolf) are subsumed into the werewolves essence and become non-functional in all respects. So trying to track a werewolf by cellphone signal is a frustrating exercise where the signal vanishes seemingly at random.

General Advice for Vampires

• Avoid head to head fight - unless you can secure a distinct tactical advantage. An individual Vampire warrior can be more than a match for a Uratha, but this represent a specialized skill set. Even a Werewolf accountant can turn into a killer at the drop of a hat. If the Vampires do not have access to reliable silver weapons, cannot marshal a force of their deadliest warriors, or cannot draft minions that won't lose their minds with Lunacy, try to use diplomacy or social attacks.
• Know your Limits - I have run many a Vampire game where the group mystic wants to beat the Werewolves at their own game. This is almost always a mistake. Under the best of circumstances a Vampires spirit arsenal is limited vs a Werewolf who's entire arsenal IS spirit. Learn a trick or two, use it when needed, but for the most part don't invest heavily in this tactic.
• Use your strength - Vampires excel at influence, manipulation, and twisting mortal society around their fingers. Most Vampires have some investment in social merits (Allies, Contacts, Mentors, Retainers, Resources, Staff). Use these to counter and undermine The Werewolves resources. Use Disciplines, Bribery, Coercion and Extortion to undermine their non - Uratha and entirely mortal support base. Heck, use these resources against the Uratha themselves! Don't think of the Werewolves as invading Orcs, but as individuals. And every individual has a price. No other supernatural group is as invested in the structure of mortal society,and no other group can weapon that society as easily or as well.

[MCN]

I think the first issue here is that we're assuming a violent death spiral here. Vampires are the Social splat, whereas Wolves are the Physical. The vamps are best suited to win through non-physical means. Take a look at Dominate, Majesty, etc. Most start failing to work in combat. So stay out of it. Meet somewhere the wolves won't be eager to attack - or find someway to meet in relative safety. Once there, the vamps have the advantage socially. Vampire obfuscate is leagues better than Uratha stealth, and following one around is good, and most Insight Gifts are unsuited for calling for Clash of Wills here; yes, they could use Scent the Unnatural, but that costs Essence to activate, and the vampire is simply unnoticable, so little reason to activate it in the first place. Boundry Ward is probably the best detection method, but even that is questionable in this case.

I disagree on the notion that most vamps have mortal influences, but it absolutely is a major selling point of the Invictus and Movement. That said, Elodoth and Iron Masters excell at using webs of social influence to hunt - I am going to assume that is a wash. Werewolves can recruit spirits, but vampire blood magics can call upon the Strix. And werewolves are just as susceptable to attacks by the Owls as the vampires are to spirits. Like social influences, I'm going to call this one a wash - something both groups are good at.

This is completely ignoring a vampire's greatest weapon - the Vinculum and the Kiss. The Kindred excell at corruption and twiting others to their cause. A daeva with Kiss of the Succubus can supernaturally addict a wolf to being fed on; they won't want to kill. You can establish three drinks blood bond in the course of minutes, no three nights required. And, once bonded, you can use Social Maneuvering to get the bonded wolf to do anything practically. Get the wolves together, you can Dominate/Majesty them as a group, then Kiss and bond them. Or individually. If you absolutely must kill the wolves, then once you've got them under your control, separate and feed on them to death. They won't struggle at that point.

Where vampire blood magic really shines in this scenario, in my opinion, is the number of divinations that are available. Werewolves are good at sensing things in their territory after a bit of set up, and general threats. Vampires, on the other hand, can figure out the best way to approach the wolves in the first place through signs and portents on a level the wolves can't. Forget the rituals in the core book - convert some from the Blood Sorcery book and look at the spoilers for Secrets of the Covenant. Even if a PC personally doesn't know an appropriate ritual, an elder would, and will likely cast it for a favor.* There's a number of abilities there that are just gorgeous at tracking down the wolves from a distance. Hells, track down just one member of their pack, even if its just a wolf blooded. Alone, you can corrupt that one member, and you've got the initiative on the rest with information and blackmail and misdirection.


1. Only teeth, acording to the sidebar. Which is notable, because Garou powers often increase claw attack power, but they're still only bashing to the Kindred.
2. Blood Sorcery could affect spirits or ghosts, but you'd have to make new rituals for it. Generally speaking, most groups stick to their own powers. Of note, however, is that spirits and ghosts are affected by vampire Discipliens as easily as mortals. You can Dominate a spirit, you can Majesty it, you can Obfuscate from them and you can Nightmare them.
3. I assume you're talking about the vanishing clothes when they shift into a more wolfy form. I would say that the electronics vanish, then reappear when they assume a Hishu or Dalu form.

* I've often seen Werewolf fans in the past claim that werewolves are better social creatures than vampires, because the pack sticks together while vamps tend to backstab. What doesn't come up is that vampires have much better support structure with more powerful of their kind to call upon in times of need than a wolf will. Any vamp can look to his covenant mates. Its rare for wolves to call for help outside their territory. The covenant support structure is a huge boon to vampires as part of that whole Social splat thing I mentioned above, and one I suggest your vampire PCs take advantage of.

[Marcus]

Using mental disciplines is for sure the better way, at least in order to divide (or even make some werewolf fight to your side with majesty) the pack or bring one of them straight in the trap ( with dominate: appear in front of him with obfuscate - obfuscate still works on other - and command him to go somewhere.).

In a physical meaning, a Vampire, built for combat, can stands and even wins against a werewolf (of same experience at least). But she MUST be able to deal aggravated (unholy claws or, even better, feeding the crone). Having coil of the wyrm or/and ride the wave style is a great thing.
Talking about the simple pools, they can be quite the same for the two races. The real problem is that a werewolf can heal ALL the damage reflexively at the start of each turn. So you can handle this dealing aggravated damages.

EDIT: dealing aggravated in a grapple is a good chance for the vampire. The vamp pool for a grapple can be greater then a same experience garou.

If you can't deal aggravated damage, a really good chance to win is: a great pool in the attack, the murder expert merit, and obfuscate 3. In that way you should be able to deal ALL the damage you need to kill the werewolf in the first attacks as automatic success (spent vitae in strenght and active vigor) and the werewolf can't even apply his defense.

[MCN]

In a physical meaning, a Vampire, built for combat, can stands and even wins against a werewolf (of same experience at least). But she MUST be able to deal aggravated (unholy claws or, even better, feeding the crone). Having coil of the wyrm or/and ride the wave style is a great thing.

I'm going to disagree with this. A Rahu with high levels of Purity and Glory is going to generally have better dice pools than a vampire with high levels of Vigor and Resilience. And that's before we start touching on the whole host of merits, like Efficent Killer or Relentless Assult.

If a wolf succeeds on a Hold Maneuver, then you might as well be dead with Efficent Killer in play.

[Marcus]

I didn't specificate during riding the wave or in frenzy.

Why the pool for equal experience garou should be so much higher?
There was a topic where were compared the pool of two top and same level character (vamp bp5 e equal werewolf with all the combat gift and merits). The result was that for claws the werewolf had 3 dice more in the pool but in grapple had lower dice pool. Using a grapple and winning the control let you deal aggravated damage with no defense reduction.

[Reighnhell]

Its actually pretty neat how a each tactic would actually play out [ I have both Werewolf 2e and Vampire 2e open and side by side].

Dominate & Majesty are both very potent against pretty much anyone or anything, but Werewolves do have access to a few gifts that can resist the effects (Inspiration - Fearless Hunter) in addition to Supernatural Tolerance and Hunter's Aspect (which is the Werewolf Equivalent to Predatory Aura).

Physical Disciplines are a must for any Vampire looking to physically engage a Werewolf. Outside of the limited-duration Gauru, Urshul will be the deadliest form a Werewolf can take, and a Vampire would need Celerity 2, Resilience 2, and Vigor 2 to match it (and additional edges granted by the disciplines off set some of the Werewolves inherent powers nicely). Please note that this is not counting any Gifts that the werewolf would also be using in a fight (and almost every Gift set contains a facet or two with direct combat application). I will echo earlier advice to double down on anything that deals aggravated damage, its the one thing that werewolves cannot easily counter, minimize, or negate.

Obfuscate is probably the best point for point stealth power across the CofD gamelines.The only real counter available to a Werewolf is the Insight Gift Scent the Unnatural,but unless the Werewolf has reason to suspect lurking Vampires, it may not be activated. If the storyteller wants to increase the threat, they might let a Werewolf use Wolf Senses to initiate a Clash (I think this would be too much, but its not unreasonable). Obfuscate gives an edge in an Ambush (Add Obfuscate to the roll), but its still contested (by a creature with considerable sensory bonuses). If the ambush fails, Murder Expert won't come into play.

Werewolves are vulnerable to the Kiss,but more resistant than regular mortals -The Vampire has to spend willpower to inflict Scarred or Swooning. It will be the storytellers call as to whether or not spending essence to offset lethal damage caused by feeding is considered "resisting".

Blood Addiction and Blood Bond work normally, but Supernaturals should be treated as Vampires for the purposes of resisting. It will be the storytellers call as to whether or not the Strength Gift Unchained lets the Uratha snap mental bindings the same way they can snap physical bindings.

[Scutarii]

Assuming that the Werewolves have Wolf-Blooded pack members and allies, have vampires target their enemy through them. The right mix of Dominate, Majesty, Vinculum, and Vitae Addiction should give the Kindred an edge. And that's not counting in the ghouls who can act in their stead during the day.

Could you give an example of how to use these 'softer' targets to drive the Werewolves back, prevent them launching or succeeding at a Hunt targetingthe Vampires, etc.? These Vampires don't want these Werewolves next door and want them to leave, but will settle for some form of deal/oath between the groups that will keep the Werewolves away from Vampiric interests.

In the second scenario (Werewolves have killed touchstones and Vampires want them dead) could you give an example of how to use the manipulated 'softer' targets to cause long term harm or death to the Werewolf?

'Target them through the less supernaturally potent members of the pack' is a starting point, but what is the scheme that gets to pushing the Werewolves away?

Tooth and Claw - In Werewolf 2e, it is explicitly called out that the teeth of a werewolf in every form (including Hishu) deal supernatural damage. The claws soften a target up, bit Werewolves kill with their teeth. A Vampires resistance to mundane damage would protect them from a werewolves claws in most situations. I would make exceptions for when the Werewolf uses Gifts to augment their damage (such as Crushing Blow or Rending Claws), and for when the Werewolf has gone into Basu-Im (Death Rage).

Cool, biting = bad, clawing = simpler to deal with..but still bad. Does mean not getting caught up in grapples is important. What tools do Werewolves have for dealing with something in a non-solid form like Protean 5? I don't mean ghosts/spirits in Twilight (there's a gift I've seen for that as well as a Rite to force them to manifest).

Blood Sorcery - Generally speaking, Vampire Magic focuses on channeling the Curse, and has limited capabilities to effect the Spirit world. A Vampire occultist would have to deal with ephemeral creatures using the methods and techniques available to mortal occultists [See Mortal Interaction in the Ephemeral Entities section of the appropriate books].
While they have not been updated to 2e, the Circle of the Crone book has several rituals that explicitly interact with spirits ( pages.201-204) they are considered optional, since Spirit Magic is more of a Mage or Werewolf thing.

Yeah, going through the Themes now I've got my book to hand none mention Spirits or Ghosts directly. Divination can probably find them and Transmutation can probably force them to Manifest or maybe even change their nature at the highest levels. Creation high enough can make Silver and Destruction just makes very unpleasant things happen. Though would need to be Rank 5 to deal with Gauru/Kuruth otherwise it would pretty much bounce in that state. There's a pair of Crone and one could probably use their divination very frequently to just keep a constant heads up of risk.

Shifting - As of second edition, a Werewolf at most harmony levels ( 8 or less) shifts with them. Belongings in Dalu (Near Human) adjust to fit,but would be otherwise functional.Belongings in Gauru (Warform), Urshul (Near-Wolf) and Urhan (Wolf) are subsumed into the werewolves essence and become non-functional in all respects. So trying to track a werewolf by cellphone signal is a frustrating exercise where the signal vanishes seemingly at random.

Ok, seems the plan to use Majesty and the like to make some of the mortals and wolf-blooded get the pack at large to install and use 'find my phone' apps so the vampires would have a semi-real time 'minimap HUD' of the wolves would fall apart at some critical moments.

General Advice for Vampires

• Avoid head to head fight - unless you can secure a distinct tactical advantage. An individual Vampire warrior can be more than a match for a Uratha, but this represent a specialized skill set. Even a Werewolf accountant can turn into a killer at the drop of a hat. If the Vampires do not have access to reliable silver weapons, cannot marshal a force of their deadliest warriors, or cannot draft minions that won't lose their minds with Lunacy, try to use diplomacy or social attacks.

Assume the Werewolves know this and realise they are under attack (they moved into the area knowing Vampires held it, they know there will be push back, they know Kindred strengths in general terms and know their Uratha strengths). The Werewolves are trying to force face to face encounters and their skills are pretty good at finding a target and stopping it escaping.

What could the Kindred do to ensure they aren't being found - especially considering their daytime issues? Same for Vampire ghouls and key mortal pawns, how to keep them safe from determined Wolves trying to force a face to face encounter?

• Know your Limits - I have run many a Vampire game where the group mystic wants to beat the Werewolves at their own game. This is almost always a mistake. Under the best of circumstances a Vampires spirit arsenal is limited vs a Werewolf who's entire arsenal IS spirit. Learn a trick or two, use it when needed, but for the most part don't invest heavily in this tactic.

Any suggestions on how a Vampire could deal with a determined Rite master with Spirit allies spying, attacking from the Shadow and Twilight, etc.? An allied Fire spirit in Twilight hanging around the Kindred for example.

• Use your strength - Vampires excel at influence, manipulation, and twisting mortal society around their fingers. Most Vampires have some investment in social merits (Allies, Contacts, Mentors, Retainers, Resources, Staff). Use these to counter and undermine The Werewolves resources. Use Disciplines, Bribery, Coercion and Extortion to undermine their non - Uratha and entirely mortal support base. Heck, use these resources against the Uratha themselves! Don't think of the Werewolves as invading Orcs, but as individuals. And every individual has a price. No other supernatural group is as invested in the structure of mortal society,and no other group can weapon that society as easily or as well.

What are those key resources the Werewolves have in the world that they really need that the Kindred can attack and take from them? After speed reading the W:tF2e book I never really came away with the feeling that the Werewolves actually care that much about mortal society. They can fairly effectively live without it and can adopt an almost 'scorched earth' policy, losing homes, wealth, contacts and the like in the pursuit of the Hunt and rebuild after. Afterall, if they Hunt down and kill the Vampires they can rebuild their homes, wealth and contacts. I think there was even a tribe or lodge that was sort of about knowing when to discard resources for the Hunt.

Let's say the Kindred get the police to have a valid search warrant on the Werewolves' home, they have mind-whammied one of the wolf-blooded to be hiding a large stash of drugs in the home. The Police find the drugs and want to arrest the Wolves. Why can't the Wolves just...leave and hole up somewhere else while they continue their Hunt? They don't, as far as I can see, actually need that home to be able to use their gifts or rites or forms to find the Kindred and tear them apart. Some of the fiction in the W:tF2e book has the Pack being hunted by the police but still going about and finding and killing the Rat-monster thing so...why not the same with Kindred?

I think the first issue here is that we're assuming a violent death spiral here. Vampires are the Social splat, whereas Wolves are the Physical. The vamps are best suited to win through non-physical means. Take a look at Dominate, Majesty, etc. Most start failing to work in combat. So stay out of it. Meet somewhere the wolves won't be eager to attack - or find someway to meet in relative safety. Once there, the vamps have the advantage socially. Vampire obfuscate is leagues better than Uratha stealth, and following one around is good, and most Insight Gifts are unsuited for calling for Clash of Wills here; yes, they could use Scent the Unnatural, but that costs Essence to activate, and the vampire is simply unnoticable, so little reason to activate it in the first place. Boundry Ward is probably the best detection method, but even that is questionable in this case.

I almost don't see how you can avoid the Death Spiral. If the Vampires are bing successful at the shutting down of the Pack through social means that's likely to start causing frustrations and tension and aggression amongst the group of almost hair trigger death rage monsters who have specific rites and culture about Sacred Hunts. As the Kindred start succeeding why wouldn't the Werewolves be pushed more and more towards Siskur-Dah on the Coterie? Once someone dies - a Touchstone for example or a mortal pack-member - what stops the escalation of violence that we see in things like Sunni/Shia fighting or Protestant/Catholic tit-for-tat in Northern Ireland and so on? Especially when the core of one side is barely contained death rage monsters.

[Marcus]

Talking about just numbers I think the situation is: (BP 5 for vamp. and equivalent for Werewolf...at greater BP the balance hangs for the vampire I suppose)

(I took it from an old topic)

"Werewolf in Gauru attack pool: 5 Str + 3 (Gauru) + 2 (Merits that increase Strength) + 10 (for Crimson Spasm - I made a roll with 18 dice and dobled the successes) + 5 (Gift of Strength) + 5 Brawl -1 (Relentless Assault to gain +1 damage) = 29 dice, with 8-again from Killer Instinct (1st dot Rahu Auspice Gift)
Werewolf in Gauru damage pool: 2 (teeth) + 1 (relentless assualt) + 1 (living weapon) + 5 (slaughterer) = + 9 lethal
Werewolf Defense: 9 (Dex/Wits + Athletics)
Werewolf Health: 5 (size) + 5 (Stamina) + 4 (Gauru) + 1 (Favored Form) + 5 (Warrior's Hide - 2nd dot Rahu Auspice Gift) = 20

Vampire attack pool: 5 Str + 5 (Frenzy) + 5 (Passive Vigor) + 6 (3 vitae) + 5 Brawl = 26
Vampire damage pool: +0 agg (claws of the unholy) + 5 (Active Vigor) = + 5 agg OR +2agg (feeding the Crone) + 5 (Active Vigor) = 7 agg
Vampire defense: 9 (Gauru prevents you from adding any skill to defense so just Dex/Wits + Celerity) but with Coil of the Wyrm 4 add 5 for BP and rise defense to 14
Vampire Health: 5 (size) + 5 (Stamina) + 5 (Resilience) + 5 BP (Coil of the wyrm 4) = 20

I've ignored the Efficient Killer merit because I think the drawback ("This Merit only works on living targets with discernible weak points") rules out Vampires (if there's something to contradict this I'd love to know)."

So the pools are 2-3 dice lower (the 8 again can be compensated from 5 more defense) and this not sound to me as an impossible match for the vamp.

[MCN]

I didn't specificate during riding the wave or in frenzy.

I assumed it when you brought up Wyrm and Ride the Wave.

Why the pool for equal experience garou should be so much higher?

Simple, really. For everything that a vampire can buy in terms of raising one's combat ability, there's an equivalent ability in Werewolf for about the same EXP cost. Raising Vigor increases your Strength and weapon damage rating. Purity raises your Health, your Strength, and auto-successes in combat, as well as gives you 8-again and inflict combat Tilts; at Purity 5, we have Crimson Spasm, which raises several important combat stats higher. Raising Reslience raises your Health and reduces damage taken, while Glory reduces damage taken. So far, in terms of raising Purity and Glory versus Vigor and Resilience, the Rahu is roughly equal to the combat vampire, with a few more tricks up his sleeve. Crimson Spasm means the wolf blows the vampire out of the water.

Now, lets look at Riding the Wave merit. Five dots, and we're getting some nice bonuses to fighting, adding in willpower and BP. For the same five dots worth of merits, we can get Relentless Assult, which (when combined with spending willpower) raises the Rahu's combat ability by a roughly equal amount. Raise your vampire's BP by a dot for more power, both in terms of vitae spending and Riding the Wave benefits. The werewolf takes Fortified Form and Living Weapon. Riding the wave and spending one vitae (remembre we have to save some for Vigor and Resilence, so that's at least BP 3, we'll say) boosts a vampire's attack pool by +5. With Fortified Form, we've got 2/2 armor, which handily negates the boosted dice pool. With Living Weapon, we have +1 damage and ignore mundane armor, which means that our wolf's bite damgae just got that much worse. The werewolf is absolutely at an advantage right now.

The vampire joins the Ordo and learns Coil of the Wyrm. You need four dots before it starts adding into combat ability, for 16 EXP, for +BP to Defense, Health, and Speed. The Werewolf buys up PU and Favored Form, which gives him lots of exceptional successes in combat, raises his Strength more. This puts the vampire roughly back on par with the Rahu.

We've spent a lot of EXP in the most efficent way here. Now, that's a lot of EXP so far. The vampire can raise his BP to get more advatnages over the wolf, yes. But the wolf is still getting more dice/armor from Crimson Spasm which puts him firmly in powerhouse territory, is inflicting Tilts that the vampire needs to heal (reducing the vamp's attack pools), getting exceptional successes all over the place (two actions during grapples), and can attack/grapple in the same action. That neatly offsets any advantage the vampire might have had, and getting grappled by the wolf means that he's dead when Efficent Killer comes into play.

All this is assuming the vampire has enough vitae to keep fighting as well. Vampires have limited vitae pools to power all these attacks - they nova, then whimper. A werewolf in Kuruth uses all these abilities without cost (except Crimson Spasm, which is just 1 essence a turn). That means the vampire needs to build up a good Herd and Location if he's expecting to have enough blood to do anything worthwhile. The werewolf is happy at being essence efficent, and will instead channel those EXP into other abilities. Or fetishes, which open up entirely new avenues.

The vampire can try to use silver weapons, but that can be disarmed through lots of means - arm wrecking, grapple, etc. The vampire can aim to purchase Protean and Cruac for agg damage, but that is more EXP sunk into a situation that lets the werewolf get more varied Gifts and abilties, keeping him abreast, if not ahead. And still doesn't solve the Efficent Killer problem. Or a werewolf using Element (fire).

Eventually, at very high levels of BP and support structures, our unrealistic combat munchkins turn towards the vampire with the advantage for the handful of rounds he's got the vitae for. I don't know if its enough to kill the wolf before the vamp runs out of steam, and frankly, it doesn't matter, because we're talking unrealistc amounts of EXP that I never expect to see happen, and all channeled towards combat twinkery.


TL;DR - Anything that a vampire does to raise his combat potential, the werewolf has an equal or better ability they can buy.

[saibot]

In addition to the many things already mentioned:

1) Auspex + Obfuscate: This allows you to quickly find the weak spots and breaking points. Once the Mekhet has scouted the situation, it is up to the Daeva and Ventrue to ruin the werewolves lives... or at least threaten to.

2) Social versus Social: It is true that werewolves have many Gifts that help them mobilise social assets too, but they cannot match the ease with which vampires do it. Lupines get bonuses to Social Maneuvering, vampires just straight up make you do shit or love them. Every member of the extended pack is a possible weak spot, only a bit of Dominate, Majesty or drop of Vitae from being turned around. Of course, you have to be hard and decisive. Chances are, the Totem is going to notice shenanigans.

3) Ghoul pawns: Vampires create thralls and good cannon fodder like no other splat. Ghouls are relatively cheap to make and decently effective force. Lunacy is an issue, but can possibly be dealt with through numbers or supernatural force (I guess it is up to the ST whether Majesty or Dominate can Clash of Wills against Lunacy or maybe just straight up ignore it).

4) Fuck up their territory: Use your mortal connections to have the police start investigations, politican passing demolition of buildings important to the pack, mafia shenanigans on their turf. If you do not have the Social Merits, force the issue with Disciplines and the Vinculum.

5) The Pure/Forsaken: You say the Pack is new? Do the PCs know any established packs or know Ancillae and Elders that might know some? Sic'em on them! Promise rewards and concessions and let the wolfies deal with it themselves.


If it comes to a relatively even physical clash (which the Kindred should avoid, as pointed out by other posters), the biggest advantages vampires have are probably:

1) Burst Damage and Focused Attacks: When comparing vampire and werewolf healing and damage mitigation, it becomes clear that werewolves are better at drawn out fights. Their basic Lethal Damage healing is at least equal or even more efficient than Vitae healing, point-per-point, depending on their Primal Urge. However, a vampire is only limited by their Vitae-per-turn while a Lupine has a fixed limit of how much they can heal in a turn even with Essence, unless they go Garou. Resilience also means a vampire can be supremely tough to take down except through extreme burst damage from single attacks. A Garou werewolf, meanwhile, can suffer a death of a thousand cuts once you pile on enough damage in a turn. That is if the fight even lasts that long. Ideally, weaponry, Celerity, Vigor, Obfuscate and even Crúac (Touch of the Morrigan, Feeding the Crone) would be used to drop a werewolf before they can Death Rage. Of course, achieving better combat coordination than a pack of lupines could be tricky...

2) Bane versus Bane: Silver is a somewhat easier weapon to wield than fire. The Kindred should have Social Merits that allow them to get their hands on silver weaponry and ammunition, which can then be wielded like any gun or blade. If normal channels fail, getting a Theban Sorcerer to do some transmutation can help. Meanwhile, a flamethrower is hard to get, molotov cocktails are extremely finite and require preperation and torches make for awkward weapons. Not to mention once they go kuruth they will likely not have the faculties to use those anymore. The worst case for the Kindred would be if the werewolves have befriended/enslaved a fire spirit, but those do not exactly grow on trees. The ol' hairspray-lighter combo also works of course. Even then, though, Resilience helps a lot and I do not (correct me if I am wrong) remember a Gift that downgraded/reduced damage from silver.

3) Nightmare: Holy shit, Nightmare. This likely will not be an option since you did not mention a Nosferatu, but dayum. Face of the Beast (NIghtmare 2) and someone is either out of the fight or hemmorhaging Willpower like crazy. The ST should be clear on how exactly this power works on lupines though. It might require you to be careful about not ending up in the path of a panicking lupine in kuruth trying to get away.

4) Going on the Offence: Yes, this contradicts what was said above, including by myself. But if you have to deal with them violently, try to hit them first. The biggest advantage of werewolves is not kuruth, but being on the Hunt. Kill them before they hunt you down. This also can give you the chance to make full use of focused burst damage (as described above).

[Marcus]

I assumed it when you brought up Wyrm and Ride the Wave.


Now, lets look at Riding the Wave merit. Five dots, and we're getting some nice bonuses to fighting, adding in willpower and BP. For the same five dots worth of merits, we can get Relentless Assult, which (when combined with spending willpower) raises the Rahu's combat ability by a roughly equal amount. Raise your vampire's BP by a dot for more power, both in terms of vitae spending and Riding the Wave benefits. The werewolf takes Fortified Form and Living Weapon. Riding the wave and spending one vitae (remembre we have to save some for Vigor and Resilence, so that's at least BP 3, we'll say) boosts a vampire's attack pool by +5. With Fortified Form, we've got 2/2 armor, which handily negates the boosted dice pool. With Living Weapon, we have +1 damage and ignore mundane armor, which means that our wolf's bite damgae just got that much worse. The werewolf is absolutely at an advantage right now.

If I remember, Crismons gives just ONE of the presented benefits at turn (or more dice pool or armor or health), and Unholy Claws ngore armor.

We've spent a lot of EXP in the most efficent way here. Now, that's a lot of EXP so far. The vampire can raise his BP to get more advatnages over the wolf, yes. But the wolf is still getting more dice/armor from Crimson Spasm which puts him firmly in powerhouse territory, is inflicting Tilts that the vampire needs to heal (reducing the vamp's attack pools), getting exceptional successes all over the place (two actions during grapples), and can attack/grapple in the same action. That neatly offsets any advantage the vampire might have had, and getting grappled by the wolf means that he's dead when Efficent Killer comes into play.

Always if I remember right, the gift (or wathever it was) that inflicts tilts can be used only when garou is facing more than one enemy at time.

Eventually, at very high levels of BP and support structures, our unrealistic combat munchkins turn towards the vampire with the advantage for the handful of rounds he's got the vitae for. I don't know if its enough to kill the wolf before the vamp runs out of steam, and frankly, it doesn't matter, because we're talking unrealistc amounts of EXP that I never expect to see happen, and all channeled towards combat twinkery.

Yes I know it's unrealistic amount of experience. But in order to considere the potentiality of each race we have to consider the top of both. Cause in a realistic situation, the victory depends on the particular build of each contender

Anyway, like I said, it's not a duel that can last for long time. It should finish in two or three turns or the vamp would have not chance

[Elfive]

The issue with using Face of the Beast on a werewolf is that in Kuruth they lose the ability to tell friend from foe. If they can't identify their friends, how are they supposed to identify the thing they're scared of?

Basically in their head it would go something like this: WHERE'S THE SCARY THING GONE? FUCK IT, MURDER EVERYTHING!