Mystery of Humanities

[JMecha]

Was kicking around some ideas for an Ordo of Dracul Mystery that revolved around Humanity and the long term conflict between the Man and Beast within Vampires, and below are the Coils of Humanities that I have come up with. I have not yet had time to give the Mystery of Humanities a full write up with sample Scales, but I am presenting what I have so you folks may kick the tires and give me some feed back. I am as interested in Mechanical Opinions as I am Opinions about the Flavor Text.


Coils of the Humanities

Sisyphean Fortitude•
The Beast is an ever present current of want, eroding away what Humanity remains until nothing remains but want. Those who have mastered this coil have learned to better endure the storm that is the every present threat of the Beast upon their Sanity. Whenever the Dragon rolls for Detachment add their Coils of Humanities Rank to their Detachment Dice Pool to maintain Humanity. In addition to this an Exceptional Success can be achieved with 3 Successes.

Koinonein • •
To Divide and Conquer is a time tested and proven tactic, and the Beast knows it well. One of the more subtle and ruthless attacks upon the Mind of the Man is the Beast's efforts to isolate the Man from others. By making the Man feel removed from Humanity, he is removed from the herd and easier prey for the Beast. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil have learned how to keep their place in the Herd despite the Beast's best efforts. Add the Dragon's ranks in the Coils of Humanities in regards to interacting with Humanity.

Promethus in the Cave of Hypnos• • •
The forced Hibernation of Topor is another of the Beasts threats to the Mind of Man. Through removing the Man from Humanity for vast cycles of time it forces the Man to see himself as an entity separate from the present, separate from the People of Today, always a creature of the past and of the future. In making the Man unfocused upon the present and uncaring for those who live within it, the Beast makes it easier for the Man to give in to the ever present Temptations of the Beast. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil have learned to steel themselves against the Beast's Call to Hibernate as an Animal. Dragons add their ranks in the Coil of Humanities to their Humanity for purposes of determining the length of their Topor.

Man Beneath Morpheus • • • •
The Beast is never truly at rest. Even within the deep hibernation of Topor, or the slumber of Day Sleep the Beast is Hungry for more, it's mind races with the revelry of past and future hunts, always denying the mind of Man the Rest it needs to fully recover. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil of Humanity are no longer the victims of the Beast's hunger when they close their eyes. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil of Humanities may regain 1 point of Willpower from Day Sleep the same as Mortals regain Willpower from a Night's Rest.

Human Under Helios • • • • •
The Beast is a Nocturnal Predator, Man is not. The Light of Day does not Burn Man, it Burns the Beast. Dragons who have Mastered the Fifth and Final Coil of Humanities stand dominate over the Beast, while it cowers in the shadow of Man. Because the Dragon's Beast cowers within the shadow of Man, the Dragon is afforded some protection from the light of day. The Dragon may as Instant action spend Willpower to to increase their Humanity Rating for One Scene. This use of Willpower does count as their use of Willpower for the Round, but for purposes of this Coil the Dragon can spend as many Willpower Points as they desire to increase their effective Humanity Rating for the Scene. The Dragon's modified Humanity for the Scene is the Humanity that is used to determine the penalty or Damage they receive for any and all Banes that use Humanity as part of their formula. This includes the Damage Dealt by Sun Light.

[Deionscribe]

Huh. This is a really interesting Mystery of the Dragon. Aside from answering my question on whether or not Kindred gain Willpower, by default, these benefits are fitting for its theme. Looking forward to your write-ups for its Scales (and, on that note, I should probably be revisiting my Mystery of Slumber to get some decent Scales done).

[Griautis]

Two glaring problems I see with this coil:
First, well, not much of a problem, but, this seems like this should by a banned coil by the ordo, because at start it feels like just defending and being more like human... when the main stray of ordo says to become better than a vampire.


Secondly, the first three dots are all passive, which do not enable you to do anything new, take a look at the other coils all of them with each dot give the character something new to do, somehow else to interact with the story and launch it forward... here, the first three will not enable any new stories to be told.

[Vitalis]

I am going to start with a little disclaimer. I dont claim to know everything and at times I am wrong. With that said.

I also struggled with finding out if Vampires get the willpower point back for daysleep. No where does it say you don't, so I have always played with it as you do and the mask/dirge is just like the vice/virtue, an additional help to get it back.

I am going to agree with Griatuis. I think this totally goes against what the Ordo is all about. It is about becoming a better vampire, not becoming ( or staying ) human. so This doesnt quite fit their theme. May I ask why you want it to be Ordo in the first place? Perhaps a unique bloodline discipline instead?

Just picky now: Torpor

[Griautis]

I also struggled with finding out if Vampires get the willpower point back for daysleep. No where does it say you don't, so I have always played with it as you do and the mask/dirge is just like the vice/virtue, an additional help to get it back.

This has been clarified by the developers several times already... Once just today in a different thread. Book does not say they do, which means they don't.

[Holy]

I would agree with the thematic concerns raised above. Maybe switch the mentality away from "How do I stop from becoming less human" to "How do I turn becoming less human into an advantage I can use?"

More like - would it be possible to turn that downward spiral of humanity into momentum you can use for other benefits? Ex: Whenever you fail a detachment check, add a bonus to all Ride the Wave (or experimentation, or Social Maneuver) attempts for the rest of the scene/session. Or, when facing a detachment check, you may allow yourself to fall into an immediate uncontrolled frenzy to gain a bonus on the check. Allow a willing, uncontrolled frenzy to act as a meaningful interaction with your Touchstone. Lots of ways you could go.

Regardless of theme, I think the first dot might be too powerful, especially if you've mastered the Mystery. +4 or +5 dice to every detachment check basically means you have good odds of passing every sin except diablerie and the embrace. I would worry that makes it trivial to ignore a big conflict inherent in the game.

[Vitalis]

This has been clarified by the developers several times already... Once just today in a different thread. Book does not say they do, which means they don't.

I don't read all the threads and that's my bad! Thanks!

[Griautis]

I would agree with the thematic concerns raised above. Maybe switch the mentality away from "How do I stop from becoming less human" to "How do I turn becoming less human into an advantage I can use?"

More like - would it be possible to turn that downward spiral of humanity into momentum you can use for other benefits? Ex: Whenever you fail a detachment check, add a bonus to all Ride the Wave (or experimentation, or Social Maneuver) attempts for the rest of the scene/session. Or, when facing a detachment check, you may allow yourself to fall into an immediate uncontrolled frenzy to gain a bonus on the check. Allow a willing, uncontrolled frenzy to act as a meaningful interaction with your Touchstone. Lots of ways you could go.

Regardless of theme, I think the first dot might be too powerful, especially if you've mastered the Mystery. +4 or +5 dice to every detachment check basically means you have good odds of passing every sin except diablerie and the embrace. I would worry that makes it trivial to ignore a big conflict inherent in the game.

Oh those things you suggest sound exactly spot on what a Coil of such themes could do. Enable you to do something new in regards to humanity. This is not what it does in it's current itteration, hence the concerns.

[Ephsy]

Nothing wrong with applying the lessons of the Dragon in a heretical way. Wouldn't be the first or the last time such a thing happens.

[Griautis]

Yes, but then it's heretical and that should be noted.

It's still against coil guidelines of them allowing you to do stuff, instead of stopping it.

[Ephsy]

I'm not sure I follow the distinction you want to make there.

[JMecha]

Two glaring problems I see with this coil:
First, well, not much of a problem, but, this seems like this should by a banned coil by the ordo, because at start it feels like just defending and being more like human... when the main stray of ordo says to become better than a vampire.


Secondly, the first three dots are all passive, which do not enable you to do anything new, take a look at the other coils all of them with each dot give the character something new to do, somehow else to interact with the story and launch it forward... here, the first three will not enable any new stories to be told.

I have not yet had time to bang out the full write up for the ideals behind the Mystery of Humanities, but I would ask you do not think of it as the "Be more Human Coil". Try and frame it in your mind as the Coil that helps the Vampire endure the ever present efforts of the Beast to erode away all that it needs to create a Draugr. The original inspiration for the coil was a Character who's Requiem consisted of his best efforts to not let the Beast consume him. The idea is not for the Vampire to be more Human, the idea is for the Dragon to maintain their sense of self despite the Beast's best efforts to see that shredded and ravaged until only the Beast remains. The Dragon's efforts in developing means to thwart the Beast's efforts and preserve their Man Mind, or Rational Mind, or Sense of Self, The Bonuses to Humanity are not to represent the Vampire being more Human, but more so the Vampire's Beast having a little less sway over the Vampire's Requiem.

The Beast is Hunger, the Beast is Rage, the Beast is Fear, etc....
The Beast though is ultimately a predator and whatever "Man Mind" that remains within the Vampire is the prey. This Mystery is to help prevent the Vampire from falling prey to some of the Beast's more subtle efforts to see the "Man Mind" eroded away. The name "Mystery of Humanities" was taken, as was some of the Greek theme because the character that inspired this was a Greek scholarly type so the names seemed to fit his theme.

Mystery of Humanities = Mystery of all the things that separate you from being a cave dwelling animal

Which kinda makes the Coils desirable for any Neonates who do not want to let their being a Vampire make them a Monster, and extremely useful for any Elders who do not want their being a Monster deny them what little remains of who they are. Some may even say that extremely Monstrous Elder Vampires would have the most to gain from this coil

As for the First Three Dots being Passive.....

With the Dragon getting a bonus to detachment checks, will the Dragon begin to believe they have Transcended the need for Touchstones and start burning useless bridges? Will The Dragon who regularly feels remorse for Sins decide to make an effort to climb the Humanity Scale and be less of a Monster? or Will the Bonus Dice to Detachment Checks inspire a bit of reckless carelessness in the Dragon who decides that no matter what they do the Beast can not have them.....what does the all night society do with a member like that?

A Dragon who is no longer suffering a penalty for interacting with Mortals, or even possibly getting a bonus for such interactions....what doors and opportunities does that create? The wedge that worked to separate the Dragon from the Mortal Population of the World has been removed or at a minimal weakened....how will that change the character's outlook, behavior, and options?

As for the Torpor One.....that one's Passiveness and or Usefulness really changes table to table. At some tables it will make the difference between a Character in Torpor through some really fun and exciting swaths of time, and at other tables the Interesting Bits will be rearranged so they take place after any unexpected or inconvenient Torpor.

I do not feel the coils I presented are exceptionally Passive compared to the Three Mysterious in the Core Book, maybe you are seeing something I am not? or hell maybe I am seeing something in my write up because it is mine and I am bias as hell? Either way I will review them again and compare them to the other existing coils to see if there is anything I do to make them less passive.

[JMecha]

I would agree with the thematic concerns raised above. Maybe switch the mentality away from "How do I stop from becoming less human" to "How do I turn becoming less human into an advantage I can use?"

More like - would it be possible to turn that downward spiral of humanity into momentum you can use for other benefits? Ex: Whenever you fail a detachment check, add a bonus to all Ride the Wave (or experimentation, or Social Maneuver) attempts for the rest of the scene/session. Or, when facing a detachment check, you may allow yourself to fall into an immediate uncontrolled frenzy to gain a bonus on the check. Allow a willing, uncontrolled frenzy to act as a meaningful interaction with your Touchstone. Lots of ways you could go.

Regardless of theme, I think the first dot might be too powerful, especially if you've mastered the Mystery. +4 or +5 dice to every detachment check basically means you have good odds of passing every sin except diablerie and the embrace. I would worry that makes it trivial to ignore a big conflict inherent in the game.

The current Theme of the Mystery is " How not to Let The Beast inevitably make you a cave dwelling animal." Now I like the idea of there being a Mystery that allows Dragons to find empowerment through sliding down the Humanity Scale and becoming more beastial, but this particular coil is not that.

As for the First Dot being Over Powered.....I am open to suggestions to make it less Over Powered.

One Idea I had was to Allow the Dragon to Roll their Coil Rating and treat those Dice as a Team Work Bonus, but the turn off for me there is the Detachment Check just went from One Roll of Dice to Two Separate Rolls. I rather not make things more complicated then needed, or take twice as long.

Another Idea I had was to only make the Coil Rating Bonus to Detachment Rolls available if the Dragon spends a Point of Willpower.

+1 Die early and +5 Dice after 20 experience points did not seem game breaking to me at first, but maybe it is......any suggestions for a more balanced mechanic are welcomed

[MCN]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=16px]Was kicking around some ideas for an Ordo of Dracul Mystery that revolved around Humanity and the long term conflict between the Man and Beast within Vampires, and below are the Coils of Humanities that I have come up with. I have not yet had time to give the Mystery of Humanities a full write up with sample Scales, but I am presenting what I have so you folks may kick the tires and give me some feed back. I am as interested in Mechanical Opinions as I am Opinions about the Flavor Text.

These... seem almost repeating. Add dots to this. Add dots to that. Add dots over there. It feels like, with the exception of the first dot to resist degeneration, this is just effectively adding dots to your Humanity score. Now, here's where I run into something of an issue. It costs 3exp for affinity, 4xp for non. I can buy Humanity for 2xp each. That means that, for the cost of purchasing the second and third tier, I can buy 3 to 4 dots of Humanity. Not only am I getting more dots of Humanity for the same price, but those dots of Humanity are more generally applicable - against banes, relating to humans, for torpor.

The fourth dot is implied in text, but it was excluded from the final book, so it should be notable that not everyone plays with that rule. As well, its usefullness depends on how generous the ST is with willpower restoration from other sources - Mask and Dirge effectively give you two Virtues / Vices above everyone else. If you get those with any regularity, then recovering willpower during the day is a bit redundant. If its scarce, its much more attractive.

I don't like the fifth dot due to its overlap with the Mystery of the Ascendent, which has a similar power (Epidermal Shielding Bath).

While I like the idea behind the Coil, everything but the very first and fourth dots are cheaper and more effective to purchase other Mysteries, Majesty/Auspex, or dots of Humanity. Regaining willpower and resisting degeneration are nice ideas, and I'm personally lackluster on the latter idea. Only the fourth dot really appeals to me in any way, and even that depends on STs. I don't see the appeal of the Coil when we could do similar for less XP.

[Deionscribe]

Man Beneath Morpheus (••••)
The Beast is never truly at rest. Even within the deep hibernation of Topor, or the slumber of Day Sleep the Beast is Hungry for more, it's mind races with the revelry of past and future hunts, always denying the mind of Man the Rest it needs to fully recover. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil of Humanity are no longer the victims of the Beast's hunger when they close their eyes. Dragons who have Mastered this Coil of Humanities may regain 1 point of Willpower from Day Sleep the same as Mortals regain Willpower from a Night's Rest.

If it's alright, you mind if I take this Coil to form part of my conversion of the Coil of Slumber? I already have it posted on Pendragon's Requiem Homebrew Hub. But I was thinking of revisiting it again to see if I could improve it somewhat.