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  • If the Frenzy goal is "kill Bob" then Bob's Idol will fail, because Disciplines can't go against the Frenzy goal.

    If the Frenzy goal is "kill someone" then Bob's Idol will succeed, because Disciplines can redirect the target so long as it doesn't go against the Frenzy goal.

    This is one of the benefits to being able to set the goal, rather than fall victim to a Frenzy where the Beast (ST) picks.

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    • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
      Pretty sure you get three options, kill, feed, run.
      "A target or goal, no more than a few words."

      Defy the Idol-user is reasonably succinct, as are most other specified goals targeting the vampire attempting to thwart you.

      But as Marcus and I both said already. You'd Have to make the roll to even want to attack the Idol user. It’s very clearly stated, “you can’t so much as crack a joke” if you don’t make the roll.
      It's also very directly implied that Idol works as a modification to Awe, which you are explicitly able to resist by lashing out, which even a vampire in frenzy can do. Better still, frenzy boosts one form of predatory aura (somewhat ambiguously in the case of the default bonus and explicitly in the case of the next tier of the Coil that is under discussion here). Countering the "softest" vampiric archetype with the most brutal one is within spec.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • Awe can be broken by Lashing Out, yeah, but Lashing Out at someone who has Idol active would definitely be one of those things that requires you to succeed at the Resolve + BP - Majesty to be able to do, if you ask me.
        Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-08-2017, 03:27 AM.


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        • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post

          From 2 sentences before that one.
          "If a character tries to coerce her behaviour contrary to the beast's desires, either via Social actions or through Disciplines, the effort fails."
          I already knew that being in frenzy could ignore idol I just wanted to check if I could go strait to frenzy or if I still needed to make the roll to activate Stir the Beast.
          Thanks for the answers.
          I'll better explain my point:
          With stir the beast you can go in Frenzy without a provocation; you can even punch at someone with no provocation. For sure you can argue or say something against someone.
          I'm pretty sure that be aware to be under Majesty effect could be considererd as a big provocation to go into Frenzy even without stir the beast.

          IDOL do not allow you to do anything, even speak, against its user, no because a threathen but because you feel completely subjugated by.the vampire.
          For this reason I would say that you really wouldn't want to go frenzy against the vampire. So if you know you are under majesty and want to force ylurself to go frenzy against your "subjugated" will, you must win the majesty roll: resolve+bp - majesty. Then, if you win, you could use that very turn to stir the beast.

          Majesty in general, even the 1st power, if take effect and wins the contested aura rolls, wouldn't allow the affected character to go in frenzy.

          If not this is what would happen:

          1) I use majesty 1.

          2) Ok roll your aura vs the npc one

          1) I win

          2) ok npc go int frenzy since you are forcing her free will.

          1) d'ho

          Making Majesty useless (vs other supernaturals at least).
          Last edited by Marcus; 11-08-2017, 04:37 AM.

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          • As I understand it it goes.
            Character 1 activates Idol.
            Character 2 rolls Resolve + Blood Potency and if successful can spend a point of Willpower to activate Stir the Beast.
            Assuming the objective set requires harm to come to C1 C2s beast will ignore the effects of idol while pursuing its objective.

            Now I've noticed that Lay Open the Mind doesn't list a range or state that it requires line of sight, it seems unwise to allow someone to read the mind of the Prince from the safty of their own haven and I'm sure that this behaviour would have been brought up if it was intended so what is everyone's take on this? I'm inclined to go with you need to be able to perceive the target such as hearing their voice or seeing them (not by phone or CCTV.

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            • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
              As I understand it it goes.
              Character 1 activates Idol.
              Character 2 rolls Resolve + Blood Potency and if successful can spend a point of Willpower to activate Stir the Beast.
              Assuming the objective set requires harm to come to C1 C2s beast will ignore the effects of idol while pursuing its objective.

              Now I've noticed that Lay Open the Mind doesn't list a range or state that it requires line of sight, it seems unwise to allow someone to read the mind of the Prince from the safty of their own haven and I'm sure that this behaviour would have been brought up if it was intended so what is everyone's take on this? I'm inclined to go with you need to be able to perceive the target such as hearing their voice or seeing them (not by phone or CCTV.
              In my view it should go:

              C1 activate awe
              C2 and C1 contest with their own aura
              If C1 wins he reflexively activate Idol
              C2 try to act against him, going into frenzy and rolls: resolve+bp minus Majesty.
              If C2 wins the rolls he spend a wp to stir the beast.
              C2 can now attack him but C1 probably would use majesty 2/3 to divert his frenzy on someone else.
              Last edited by Marcus; 11-08-2017, 10:29 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                Awe can be broken by Lashing Out, yeah, but Lashing Out at someone who has Idol active would definitely be one of those things that requires you to succeed at the Resolve + BP - Majesty to be able to do, if you ask me.
                In my reading awe can be resisted just at the activation time (or as soon as you enter in a room with an awe user) and not later. Am I wrong?

                This will exclude by rule further lashing out attempts

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                • It's been pointed out many many times on these forums (by Rose herself) that you do NOT get a memo saying you are under the effects of awe. ( or even Charm, and Idol ) That it is not something you KNOW is happening. Unless you know that Said Vampire can do awe and often uses it, then you wouldn't have any reason to suspect that you are under some sort of supernatural pull. Once Idol has been kicked off, it's far too late to just simply break awe and be done with it.

                  From what I understand, you have to resist awe at the time it's turned on. (Same with Dread Presence.) So say you lash out because you think they are doing something funky and they aren't , then you're the one that's in trouble.

                  Also, Since Idol is Reflexive and Awe is instant, you can do them both on your turn. Awe, then immediately Idol. I would not let any character just simply roll to lash out just because a vampire did Awe. That goes back to you aren't suppose to know it's happening to you.



                  Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
                  As I understand it it goes.
                  Character 1 activates Idol.
                  Character 2 rolls Resolve + Blood Potency and if successful can spend a point of Willpower to activate Stir the Beast.
                  Assuming the objective set requires harm to come to C1 C2s beast will ignore the effects of idol while pursuing its objective.
                  Character 2 rolls Resolve + BP - 5 and if successful he can spend WP ( assuming he isnt enthralled )



                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  "A target or goal, no more than a few words."

                  Defy the Idol-user is reasonably succinct, as are most other specified goals targeting the vampire attempting to thwart you.
                  personally I dont think "Defy" is a good enough goal for Frenzy, because it's too vague. What does defy actually mean in the context of the situation? Spit in the vampire's face? Not get into the car with them? Kill them? Eat them? Knock them out? Not drink the purple koolaid? Show the other people in the room they aren't cool? That's why I think the goal has to be short and specific. There are many threads in here that while in frenzy you can't do wildly thoughtful or execute mastermind plots. Because it is so very primal and down to the baser instincts. Fight, Flight, Feed.



                  Originally posted by Marcus View Post
                  C2 can now attack him but C1 probably would use majesty 2/3 to divert his frenzy on someone else.

                  If the goal is to Kill Idol User, Why wouldn't idol just redirect that to someone else if you are saying that Charm would be able to redirect it? Also I do not understand why people don't think Idol would redirect "Kill Idol User" to someone else if the book gives the example that "Eating Elspeth" can be redirected to "Eat Dominic" Obviously the goal/ target of the initial frenzy was to attack and eat Elspeth and the book states that Elspeth, redirected it to eat Dominic.
                  Last edited by Vitalis; 11-08-2017, 01:08 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                    It's been pointed out many many times on these forums (by Rose herself) that you do NOT get a memo saying you are under the effects of awe. ( or even Charm, and Idol ) That it is not something you KNOW is happening.
                    Conscious knowledge is generally not something that the Beast troubles itself too much with and growling (much less any of the other kinds of actions taken to simply invoke an aspect of the Beast) is kind of far beneath the threshold of harm or embarrassment. Lashing out already costs Willpower and doesn't have great odds of success against superior opposition compared to a flatly penalized resistance roll, either.

                    It's a safe bet that the insulation lashing out provides against certain Disciplines is built on having the bonus for winning the conflict in the case of a contested challenge, and given that Awe is the first example of that insulation in the book I'd think it's within the realm of intended use that lashing out in defense can either be done instinctively or without breaking the terms of Majesty.

                    personally I dont think "Defy" is a good enough goal for Frenzy, because it's too vague. […] That's why I think the goal has to be short and specific.
                    Most other specified goals to that end are similarly succinct. "Drive King out of the room," "Visibly harm King," and similar can be described in short sentences.

                    There are many threads in here that while in frenzy you can't do wildly thoughtful or execute mastermind plots. Because it is so very primal and down to the baser instincts. Fight, Flight, Feed.
                    "Immediate, forceful, and destructive abandon" is not incompatible with "attack/humiliate/escape [the vampire who is attempting to be untouchable and in control of the room]."

                    Also I do not understand why people don't think Idol would redirect "Kill Idol User" to someone else if the book gives the example that "Eating Elspeth" can be redirected to "Eat Dominic" Obviously the goal/ target of the initial frenzy was to attack and eat Elspeth and the book states that Elspeth, redirected it to eat Dominic.
                    Because the Elspeth example is for a regular hunger-based frenzy and Stir the Beast is neither a regular frenzy nor likely to be invoked for the sake of hunger alone. If only one person in the room fits the bill for "punish the person who insulted the Beast's host," then blunt redirection isn't an option.

                    Having functional control of some number of other people in the room enables some level of maneuvering to produce an alternative target to redirect to, but even assuming the Beast won't recognize directives tied to specific individuals the range of possible redirection is not created equal for every stimulus.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                      If the goal is to Kill Idol User, Why wouldn't idol just redirect that to someone else if you are saying that Charm would be able to redirect it? Also I do not understand why people don't think Idol would redirect "Kill Idol User" to someone else if the book gives the example that "Eating Elspeth" can be redirected to "Eat Dominic" Obviously the goal/ target of the initial frenzy was to attack and eat Elspeth and the book states that Elspeth, redirected it to eat Dominic.
                      Because Idol itself does not allow any kind of command while charmed and enthralled do. Idol, in my view, is an overwhelming enhancment of your presence that let you appear as a God.

                      I.e. You would think 100 times before to attack or argue with the CEO of your company even if you think he ia wrog and he is humiliating you, but if you get too angry.....

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                      • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                        Because Idol itself does not allow any kind of command while charmed and enthralled do. Idol, in my view, is an overwhelming enhancment of your presence that let you appear as a God.

                        I.e. You would think 100 times before to attack or argue with the CEO of your company even if you think he ia wrog and he is humiliating you, but if you get too angry.....
                        Most people keep their composure with their boss even if they are too angry and go vent about it later. Idol very much puts up a bubble around the user which makes you have to roll to actually attack them. that means you actually have to try to fight their power to attack them. It is an unspoken "Don't attack me" command.

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                        • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                          If the goal is to Kill Idol User, Why wouldn't idol just redirect that to someone else if you are saying that Charm would be able to redirect it? Also I do not understand why people don't think Idol would redirect "Kill Idol User" to someone else if the book gives the example that "Eating Elspeth" can be redirected to "Eat Dominic" Obviously the goal/ target of the initial frenzy was to attack and eat Elspeth and the book states that Elspeth, redirected it to eat Dominic.
                          The rules in the book explicitly say that no social skill or discipline can get the beast to act against its desire.
                          "If a character tries to coerce her behaviour contrary to the beast's desires, either via Social actions or through Disciplines, the effort fails."
                          The example given about redirecting a frenzying vampire with dominate was a frenzy with the aim "feed" so "eat him not me" didn't prevent the desired outcome, a frenzy with the desire "put this idol happy whore in her place" could be redirected from beating her into torpor to having her beg you to stop but not beating someone else into torpor unless that would prove to the intended victim that you could hurt people that they were trying to protect and as the beast is direct it probably wouldn't occur to the beast that that was a valid way to achieve its goal. If it was obvious after you did it that you had made your point the frenzy could then end and you would be back under idol to someone terrified of you and very upset.

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                          • Originally posted by Live Bait View Post

                            The rules in the book explicitly say that no social skill or discipline can get the beast to act against its desire.
                            "If a character tries to coerce her behaviour contrary to the beast's desires, either via Social actions or through Disciplines, the effort fails."
                            The example given about redirecting a frenzying vampire with dominate was a frenzy with the aim "feed" so "eat him not me" didn't prevent the desired outcome, a frenzy with the desire "put this idol happy whore in her place" could be redirected from beating her into torpor to having her beg you to stop but not beating someone else into torpor unless that would prove to the intended victim that you could hurt people that they were trying to protect and as the beast is direct it probably wouldn't occur to the beast that that was a valid way to achieve its goal. If it was obvious after you did it that you had made your point the frenzy could then end and you would be back under idol to someone terrified of you and very upset.
                            We can argue this in total circles. Your opinion on what is possible in a redirect differs from mine. It says Disciplines fail if it's in direct conflict, however you can redirect them. You have to take both sentences. I think Idol can redirect, that it is not directly in conflict. Your beast wants to hurt someone. hurt someone else and that might be sufficient to hurt the idol user too. actually win win as it might hurt them both! Especially if that someone is a loved one. There is more than one way to hurt someone. Again I think a direct conflict would be telling the beast to stop fighting, to run away, To feed instead of kill. But kill for kill... is right in line with it.

                            Also. I think everyone else in the room would protect the Idol User. They would try to stop the user from getting hurt because they wouldn't want that. That's what the power does.. It makes it so you don't want to hurt them. Then again. you might not think that's what Idol does and that's fine too.

                            You have mentioned that Stir the beast is not a normal frenzy however. it says right in stir the beast, that you have no more control than you normally would once you are in a frenzy. So, ultimately you will do what works for your games, and I will do what works for mine. That is perfectly acceptable.

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                            • Originally posted by Vitalis View Post
                              Also. I think everyone else in the room would protect the Idol User. They would try to stop the user from getting hurt because they wouldn't want that. That's what the power does.
                              That is a function of the Enthralled Condition, which Idol interacts with but does not directly cause just by activating Awe and Idol in a room full of unprimed people.

                              The base effect of Idol without respect to the Conditions applied by subsidiary powers is "it is incredibly difficult for characters to act against the vampire due to how untouchably superior she seems."

                              Using Idol allows you to accelerate multiple people from neutral to an abbreviated version of Enthralled for cheap, but on its own Idol does not do anything other than make the vampire feel fascinating, forgivable, and important.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Diverting a frenzying vampire's attentions toward "another, similar target" doesn't strike me as very doable for "demonstrate that this vampire cannot use their supernatural charisma to influence me."
                                Nevermind the actual difficulties of striking eye contact with a frenzied individual bent of ripping you apart with their bare claws.

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