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  • Honey Trap (•)
    Effect: Your character’s blood not only bonds, but it
    invigorates. When a vampire tastes your character’s Vitae, she
    regains a point of Willpower. If this results in a new bond, or
    steps up an existing bond, she also takes a Beat.



    Am I assuming correctly that the Willpower gain and Beat gain refer to the player with the Honey Trap merit? Does this also apply when a vampire forcefully drains vitae from the Honey Trap player?

    Comment


    • No, it refers to the imbiber. It's to encourage the imbiber to drink more. Either to ensure a vinculum is initially established or to seek out the opportunity to imbibe again and strengthen or complete the bond.

      And yes it would apply even if fed from involuntarily. That's a risk you better be prepared to take if you're going to use perversion to enslave other vampires.

      And another thing, if a vampire with higher blood potency imbibes, you've just given them a free willpower to resist the establishment of a vinculum.
      Last edited by tsusasi; 09-14-2018, 08:07 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
        No, it refers to the imbiber. It's to encourage the imbiber to drink more. Either to ensure a vinculum is initially established or to seek out the opportunity to imbibe again and strengthen or complete the bond.

        And yes it would apply even if fed from involuntarily That's a risk you better be prepared to take if you're going to use perversion to enslave other vampires.

        And another thing, if a vampire with higher blood potency imbibes, you've just given them a free willpower to resist the establishment of a vinculum.

        O really? So in other words, this Merit is borderline useless. Why would any player ever take this Merit other than to purposefully give their character a handicap?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
          O really? So in other words, this Merit is borderline useless. Why would any player ever take this Merit other than to purposefully give their character a handicap?
          …Ven, look at what a blood bond does. Even a first-stage bond gives the average neonate cause to think twice about causing you harm and lets you talk them into things quicker. It's there to further incentivize you to use the bond and to provide PCs incentives to accept bonds from other vampires even though the Vinculum isn't represented with Conditions.

          Also, it's a one-dot Merit. What were you expecting out of that kind of investment?


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

          Comment


          • Honey Trap is downright ridiculous, I've had an entire coterie basically doing my bidding with it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              …Ven, look at what a blood bond does. Even a first-stage bond gives the average neonate cause to think twice about causing you harm and lets you talk them into things quicker. It's there to further incentivize you to use the bond and to provide PCs incentives to accept bonds from other vampires even though the Vinculum isn't represented with Conditions.

              Also, it's a one-dot Merit. What were you expecting out of that kind of investment?

              I can't agree that this Merit is useful or even worth 1 dot. As tsusasi already pointed out, the merit gives the drinker a Willpower, which they can then immediately use to resist the bond. If this is a BP6+ elder, chances are they are going to be just fine if they're careful and don't take more than 3 Vitae at a time. Vampires with less than 6 Blood Potency have no reason to drink from you and most likely won't because Vitae addiction is a thing you want to avoid like the plague, most players know that and most NPCs who aren't freshly embraced fledgelings know that as well.

              All in all, this Merit seems useless to players, unless as a player you get yourself a Kindred Retainer with the True Friend Merit and then also give the Honey Trap Merit to that Retainer (if your storyteller allows it, personally I would never allow that), then all of the sudden this is a god-tier Merit.


              Edit: I mean, lets compare this to Kiss of the Succubus, the unique Daeva merit which also costs only 1 experience. It basically does the same thing if you look at it from an abstract perspective, with 2 massive key differences: it doesn't cost you anything other than 1 Willpower if you use it on Kindred and you actually gain Vitae, heck, after a while you'll actually get yourself a nice harem of people who are practically begging you to give you their Vitae, basically resulting in a free Herd (though some storytellers could demand you buy the Herd Merit if you want to gain that sort of benefit from it, and rightfully so). It can also be used on Kindred, which, when you're BP6 and actually have to feed on Kindred, is super duper useful. Now compare that Kiss of the Succubus awesomeness to Honey Trap... yeah...
              Last edited by Ventrue Life; 06-04-2018, 01:09 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Malus View Post
                Honey Trap is downright ridiculous, I've had an entire coterie basically doing my bidding with it.

                How? Don't your players have free will? Or do you deprive them of their agency by using persuasion rolls against them in the same way they would roll when they try to persuade an NPC?

                I'm genuinely curious. Can you give me an example of how you got the (other?) players dance to your tunes with Honey Trap?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post


                  O really? So in other words, this Merit is borderline useless. Why would any player ever take this Merit other than to purposefully give their character a handicap?
                  Because it’s not useless. No, it’s not going to let a weaker character auto win over an elder BP character. But someone playing an Ordo Dracul character that chose the Mystery of the Voivode and purchased this merit would quickly get an obscene level of control over someone. Someone who wants to play a character who wants to use perversion as an influence building tool in their repertoire isn’t required to become an Ordo Dracul tool in order to make their character concept viable. Elders who require kindred blood to sustain them are more likely to find willing participants if they offer to be mutually bonded or have willpower to offer as part of the deal. Alternatively, a younger vampire with this merit could more effectively prostitute themselves or secure a high level mentorship from high blood potency elder if they have something more to offer than just vitae.
                  Last edited by tsusasi; 06-04-2018, 01:10 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post
                    I can't agree that this Merit is useful or even worth 1 dot. As tsusasi already pointed out, the merit gives the drinker a Willpower, which they can then immediately use to resist the bond.
                    And doing so then means they've lost any actual benefit for doing so when Willpower recovery is starkly limited for vampires and the roll is one stat.

                    If this is a BP6+ elder, chances are they are going to be just fine if they're careful and don't take more than 3 Vitae at a time.
                    Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the words "cumulative -1 die penalty"?

                    Vampires with less than 6 Blood Potency have no reason to drink from you and most likely won't because Vitae addiction is a thing you want to avoid like the plague, most players know that and most NPCs who aren't freshly embraced fledgelings know that as well.
                    Vitae addiction is not called out as especially dangerous for vampires and for players it is a Beat engine. Vampires with an existing third-stage bond can safely drink from you without risking a new bond and you can leverage the resource of free Willpower accordingly.

                    All in all, this Merit seems useless to players, unless as a player you get yourself a Kindred Retainer with the True Friend Merit and then also give the Honey Trap Merit to that Retainer (if your storyteller allows it, personally I would never allow that), then all of the sudden this is a god-tier Merit.
                    It's a Merit that makes you that much closer to indispensable in a society of resource-hungry immortals.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                    Comment


                    • So, as far as I was aware ghouls can't have supernatural merits and what not. However, I was looking through their section of the 2e book and I couldn't find where I read that. Can anyone give me a page number?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post
                        So, as far as I was aware ghouls can't have supernatural merits and what not. However, I was looking through their section of the 2e book and I couldn't find where I read that. Can anyone give me a page number?

                        Not sure where it is in Requiem, or if it's actually there at this moment. However on p.56 in CofD it says "These Merits require the character remain human (nonsupernatural.)
                        If the character becomes a vampire, ghoul, mage, or any other supernatural character type, these Merits disappear." about Supernatural Merits.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ventrue Life View Post


                          How? Don't your players have free will? Or do you deprive them of their agency by using persuasion rolls against them in the same way they would roll when they try to persuade an NPC?

                          I'm genuinely curious. Can you give me an example of how you got the (other?) players dance to your tunes with Honey Trap?
                          Vampires can't easily regain Willpower. Suck from the vein and you will. You'll also get BEATS, your ability to resist the bond will be reduced more and more. Usually point the beat clause up and be a marginally descent master and they'll beg you for their fix without rolling any dice.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Poseur View Post


                            Not sure where it is in Requiem, or if it's actually there at this moment. However on p.56 in CofD it says "These Merits require the character remain human (nonsupernatural.)
                            If the character becomes a vampire, ghoul, mage, or any other supernatural character type, these Merits disappear." about Supernatural Merits.
                            Ah, so that's where I read it. Thanks, so do ghouls lose all supernatural merits (like the various wolf-blooded merits), or is it just stuff like psychokinesis and other blue book supernatural merits.

                            Comment


                            • Wolf-Blooded Tells are explicitly not lost even if the Wolf-Blooded becomes a non-werewolf template. Any other Supernatural Merits are immediately lost or suppressed (in case the ghoul stops being a ghoul they could regain access, but if not then the ST should allow Sanctity of Merits or maybe even refund it as XP to allow the ghoul to buy Disciplines).


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the words "cumulative -1 die penalty"?
                                Yep, which is why I said an elder with BP6 should only take 3 vitae at a time. That way he always gets to roll 3 dice to resists the Blood Bond (6-3=3). That's more often than not going to result in a success.

                                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Vitae addiction is not called out as especially dangerous for vampires and for players it is a Beat engine. Vampires with an existing third-stage bond can safely drink from you without risking a new bond and you can leverage the resource of free Willpower accordingly.
                                I simply cannot agree with this. How is being addicted to the blood of other predators not dangerous? You think the other vampires are just going to be fine with you running around trying to steal Vitae from them in the same way a heroin addict tries to get his fix?

                                Have you ever been addicted to something in real life Satchel? Have you ever seen an addict in real life? I have. It's not pretty. And Vitae addiction is worse because the stuff you are addicted to comes from other very dangerous predators.


                                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                It's a Merit that makes you that much closer to indispensable in a society of resource-hungry immortals.
                                That will 100% depend on your game, your storyteller and players. I for one would stay the fuck away from vampires with the Honey Trap Merit in the same way I stay the fuck away from cocaine dealers in real life. A Willpower and a Beat isn't worth that amount of trouble, it isn't worth risking Vitae addiction and/or getting in a bond with someone you might not even trust.
                                Now if this Honey Trap vampire is also my True Friend and I'm a BP6 elder, then it becomes interesting. Then I'd be drinking from that Honey Trap vampire all the time.
                                From a player perspective though? I would never take this Merit unless I trusted the Storyteller would do something interesting with it. For example in a situation where my Sire becomes a BP6 vampire and asks my character for a drink. That's when I might consider getting Honey Trap, but even then I can see it being a double edged sword.

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