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  • Originally posted by Maina View Post
    I'm not sure what logic follows that just because Awe can do something, Dominate can do it, too. Or vice-versa. Sure, they both fall within the "social engineering" sphere, but only in the sense that Animalism and Protean both fall into the "animals" sphere. The effects, limitations, means, methods, are all vastly different. They are entirely different Disciplines. As stated earlier, Awe sets one up as a muse and celebrity, that's kind of its niche, and so that Devotion makes sense for it. Dominate has none of that, so you can't really call it precedent-setting for Dominate.

    Not to say if you can think of a way to do it with Dominate, you can't go for it (though I think the whole 'eye contact' thing being one of the core aspects of the Discipline that is also based in Vampire mythos makes it a bad idea to try to get rid of it from a narrative perspective). Using Majesty to justify things for Dominate, however, is flawed logic. Like saying Animalism can have a way to do agg damage with claws because Protean gets Claws of the Unholy and they're both animal-related Disciplines.
    I disagree about one point here: the classification for whome both Protean and Animalism are animal-related disciplines such as Dominate and Majesty are Social related disciplines.

    First of all Majesty and Dominate are CONTROL related disciplines. And for that I would assimilate Abnimalism much more to them than to Protean.
    Protean is not animal related discipines: is a shapenshifting related discipline. 1st dot is fusion with soil, 5th is becoming mist. Both of these powers aren't really animal related.

    That said, about the eyes contact part you stated, well, each person in a crowd can see the vampire's eyes at once (and maybe Awe can play a determinant role here). Dominate specifies that is not the vampire that need to look in the eyes of anyone she want to mesmerize but it's the victim who need to see her eyes.
    Last edited by Marcus; 07-02-2018, 03:22 AM.

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    • Question: To fortify themself against awe using Predatory Aura is it still a contested roll, isn't it? I mean, to wash out the Awe effect do you still need to win the predatory aura contested roll and not just to achieve a success on it. Am I right?
      Last edited by Marcus; 07-02-2018, 08:24 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
        Question: To fortify themself against awe using Predatory Aura is still a contested roll, isn't it? I mean to wash out the Awe effect you still need to win the predatory aura contested roll not just to achieve a success on it. Am I right?
        I would say that is dependent on the mechanics used and time constraints. (I really don't like bogging down game play with predatory aura contests as the solution to no resist checks and dislike the developers' selective cognitive dissonance of the mechanics regarding mind and emotion control.) When I allowed a single instant act of concentration of Awe to affect people retroactively who showed up later, dispelled only by winning a predatory aura contest, it immediately deteriorated to Daeva players cockblocking other players' hunting attempts, date raping their ghouls and touchstones, and ripping them off by having their ghoul show up and pick everyone's pockets, so the Nosferatu preemptively flings Dread Presence or the Mekhet using Obfuscate on the Daeva to make everyone ignore them as their declared action everytime they arrive on the scene or as a first response to the Daeva showing up. Meanwhile the Ventrue or Gangrel's only option was to become drooling sycophants who can get robbed blind or leave the scene. So I changed the mechanics. Awe doesn't work retroactively on people who show up later. (The player has to take another instant action to keep tossing it around to get newcomers.) A single success on a predatory aura roll dispels it, unless it's activated with the express purpose of influencing that character, then it's winning a predatory aura contest.
        Last edited by tsusasi; 07-02-2018, 08:14 AM.

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        • Originally posted by tsusasi View Post

          I would say that is dependent on the mechanics used and time constraints. (I really don't like bogging down game play with predatory aura contests as the solution to no resist checks and dislike the developers' selective cognitive dissonance of the mechanics regarding mind and emotion control.) When I allowed a single instant act of concentration of Awe to affect people retroactively who showed up later, dispelled only by winning a predatory aura contest, it immediately deteriorated to Daeva players cockblocking other players' hunting attempts, date raping their ghouls and touchstones, and ripping them off by having their ghoul show up and pick everyone's pockets, so the Nosferatu preemptively flings Dread Presence or the Mekhet using Obfuscate on the Daeva to make everyone ignore them as their declared action everytime they arrive on the scene or as a first response to the Daeva showing up. Meanwhile the Ventrue or Gangrel's only option was to become drooling sycophants who can get robbed blind or leave the scene. So I changed the mechanics. Awe doesn't work retroactively on people who show up later. (The player has to take another instant action to keep tossing it around to get newcomers.) A single success on a predatory aura roll dispels it, unless it's activated with the express purpose of influencing that character, then it's winning a predatory aura contest.

          Your mechanic sounds good to me.
          The only concern I have is that, usually, predatory Aura is an instant action directed to a specific target (the Awe user in this case), so this implies the awe user would like to contest this aura lashing out by himself as well, to not be affected by the X condition at least.

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          • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
            Question: To fortify themself against awe using Predatory Aura is it still a contested roll, isn't it? I mean, to wash out the Awe effect do you still need to win the predatory aura contested roll and not just to achieve a success on it. Am I right?
            Tsusasi's player problems notwithstanding, lashing out to break a Discipline's effect on you works the same way as a normal predatory aura contest, per previous discussion of this topic.


            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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            • Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              I would say that is dependent on the mechanics used and time constraints. (I really don't like bogging down game play with predatory aura contests as the solution to no resist checks and dislike the developers' selective cognitive dissonance of the mechanics regarding mind and emotion control.) When I allowed a single instant act of concentration of Awe to affect people retroactively who showed up later, dispelled only by winning a predatory aura contest, it immediately deteriorated to Daeva players cockblocking other players' hunting attempts, date raping their ghouls and touchstones, and ripping them off by having their ghoul show up and pick everyone's pockets, so the Nosferatu preemptively flings Dread Presence or the Mekhet using Obfuscate on the Daeva to make everyone ignore them as their declared action everytime they arrive on the scene or as a first response to the Daeva showing up. Meanwhile the Ventrue or Gangrel's only option was to become drooling sycophants who can get robbed blind or leave the scene. So I changed the mechanics. Awe doesn't work retroactively on people who show up later. (The player has to take another instant action to keep tossing it around to get newcomers.) A single success on a predatory aura roll dispels it, unless it's activated with the express purpose of influencing that character, then it's winning a predatory aura contest.
              Damn. I wouldn't want to play with your players.

              Originally posted by Marcus View Post
              Question: To fortify themself against awe using Predatory Aura is it still a contested roll, isn't it? I mean, to wash out the Awe effect do you still need to win the predatory aura contested roll and not just to achieve a success on it. Am I right?
              It's not explained, but I believe the intention is that the Majesty user still can choose between "fighting" and "fleeing". I.e. choosing whether to respond with their own Lash (which may cost a WP point depending on relative Blood Potency).
              My table instead pits the Lashing Out dice pool against the Clash of Wills dice pool for Awe, and contesting it is reflexive and free. So Power Attribute + Blood Potency vs Majesty + Blood Potency.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post


                Your mechanic sounds good to me.
                The only concern I have is that, usually, predatory Aura is an instant action directed to a specific target (the Awe user in this case), so this implies the awe user would like to contest this aura lashing out by himself as well, to not be affected by the X condition at least.


                The rules aren’t very specific as to how to handle continuous running wide area/multitarget effects where the one activating the power in question also currently isn’t present to target. And no, I’m not going to arbitrarily disallow players from turning off deleterious effects that cripple their overall effectiveness if someone wants to make the effort. In the case of Awe, if you walk into the vicinity after it’s been turned on, you aren’t subject to the effect so you have no need to Lash Out and accidentally disrupt that person’s activities. Granted you can still opt to Lash Out but that makes you the aggressor. And on the other side of that, If you’re going to throw around powers that handicap other players after the fact, you’re stating an intention that you plan to take advantage of them and should be prepared to deal with it.
                Last edited by tsusasi; 07-02-2018, 11:23 AM.

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                • I don't really understand why you don't let Awe affect people who arrive after Awe is already activated. It's described as an aura you exude during the duration and not a Condition like Mesmerized that's applied during activation that holds for a scene regardless if the user stays in the locale.
                  There's no reason to think they'd retroactively be placed under Awe (which leads me to believe you're not using the word incorrectly). Is it that you've assumed it's only possible to Lash Out against the user of Awe when Awe is activated? Since Lashing Out isn't reflexive then it would be impossible to ever Lash Out during the activation. Combined with the fact that Awe is subtle enough that you might not even realise it's activated (at least until the user starts talking to you) it's pretty clear that you're supposed to be able to Lash Out to disrupt Awe at any time.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    I don't really understand why you don't let Awe affect people who arrive after Awe is already activated. It's described as an aura you exude during the duration and not a Condition like Mesmerized that's applied during activation that holds for a scene regardless if the user stays in the locale.

                    There's no reason to think they'd retroactively be placed under Awe (which leads me to believe you're not using the word incorrectly). Is it that you've assumed it's only possible to Lash Out against the user of Awe when Awe is activated? Since Lashing Out isn't reflexive then it would be impossible to ever Lash Out during the activation. Combined with the fact that Awe is subtle enough that you might not even realise it's activated (at least until the user starts talking to you) it's pretty clear that you're supposed to be able to Lash Out to disrupt Awe at any time.
                    From a mechanics standpoint, when you activate Awe (it's an instant action) the user says or does something to draw attention to themself. If someone's not present to witness that action then they can't be "awed" by it. Technically Awe only modifies your appearance, not impressions you've already left on others due to prior actions. The user can "look" like they may have murdered someone and have it ignored but not get away with actually murdering someone in front of audience. (Go read page 7 of the Daeva clanbook. That is an in-character example, not only of how humans act when awed, but how humans (and by extension vampires) would notice Awe being used. And in that example they are not automatically affected by it because they take steps to avoid being ensnared.

                    It's not an issue of me assuming it's only possible to Lash out against an Awe user only after it's activated first. (It certainly is possible.) It's an issue of player agency and not wanting to bog down the game with unnecessary mechanics for players who wish to retain their agency. Most of the time my players are actually pretty good about not deliberately and actively screwing each other over but there's always someone who likes to push and see how much he can get away with and who will tolerate being screwed with, or the inexperienced player who may be trying to see what they can get away with or just wasn't thinking at the time. And from an in character perspective when I ST, my NPC vampires do not play dumb and ignore it when Daeva run amok hijacking prospective vessels from the other clans "because it's an innate ability for them". It's also an innate ability for vampires to instill fear, make people disappear, run out into oncoming traffic and so on.
                    Last edited by tsusasi; 07-02-2018, 04:18 PM.

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                    • It's been like 3 pages of Awe back and forth. Maybe it should be it's own thread?

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                      • Originally posted by Maina View Post
                        I'm not sure what logic follows that just because Awe can do something, Dominate can do it, too. Or vice-versa. Sure, they both fall within the "social engineering" sphere, but only in the sense that Animalism and Protean both fall into the "animals" sphere. The effects, limitations, means, methods, are all vastly different. They are entirely different Disciplines. As stated earlier, Awe sets one up as a muse and celebrity, that's kind of its niche, and so that Devotion makes sense for it. Dominate has none of that, so you can't really call it precedent-setting for Dominate.

                        Not to say if you can think of a way to do it with Dominate, you can't go for it (though I think the whole 'eye contact' thing being one of the core aspects of the Discipline that is also based in Vampire mythos makes it a bad idea to try to get rid of it from a narrative perspective). Using Majesty to justify things for Dominate, however, is flawed logic. Like saying Animalism can have a way to do agg damage with claws because Protean gets Claws of the Unholy and they're both animal-related Disciplines.
                        You miss the point as to why people think a Devotion for Awe sets a precedent for Dominate. It's not about similarities between Majesty and Dominate in regards to what they do. The important part is that it shows Disciplines can be carried on through objects. That's it. That's why it sets a precedent that Dominate should be able to follow "somehow". That last word was important. It means it might not end up being entirely the same, or even the same medium, but it means there is probably a conceivable way to imagine a devotion whom's effects are carried on through an object.

                        A Dominate devotion that Mesmerizes the next person to look into a certain mirror would be rad, you must admit. And speaks to the "eye contact" thing in an indirect way.

                        That said, concerning Dominate through video:
                        Subliminal messages in film that hypnotize you into doing things are some of the most common urban legends concerning video that exist. A Dominate devotion that adds subliminal messages to video is absolutely thematic. The effect is still entering through the eyes, as well. It should probably have large drawbacks and limitations in order to not make it too powerful, though.
                        Last edited by Unahim; 07-02-2018, 05:21 PM.

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                        • tsusasi Are you saying this is all your house rules? Because it isn't supported by the book. By the book, the vampire creates an aura of power, and all the mechanical buffs that follow apply to the vampire and nobody else. It doesn't matter if someone was there at the start or not.

                          I'm also not sure how it affects player agency, since all Awe does (again, mechanically) is remove dice penalties and add a dice bonus to the user.

                          Auspex give the user secrets, no matter how hard the target tries to hide them, from dot one.
                          Obfuscate gives near-perfect invisibility from dot one.
                          Dominate gives mind control from dot one.
                          Protean gives near-invulnerability and an effectively free Haven from dot one

                          And so on, and so on.

                          I don't know why people get so up-in-arms about how supposedly overpowered Awe is and feel a need to nerf it into the ground with things like "I always know when I'm affected, so I lash out!" and "It only works when I say so, because the book makes it too potent." All the signature disciplines are potent at dot one.It's a deliberate design decision.

                          I also feel house rules don't belong in this thread at all, since they end up in lengthy, multi-page discussions, and most of the time nobody was asking for house rules to begin with.

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                          • Indeed. Like I said a page or two ago as well, Awe, by itself, is really not making a Daeva's plans succeed on its own any time soon. It's really not that dangerous unless you believe a social roll can mind control someone into doing something they would never, ever do (like some people believe of natural 20's in D&D social rolls as well...) which is simply not the case. This sounds like the entirety of tsuasi's problem. Like Rose has said before, Awe can't make something exist that isn't there. It can't make people agree to things they'd never do, it can only make them agree to things they probably wouldn't do, but there has to be a chance to begin with.

                            "it immediately deteriorated to Daeva players cockblocking other players' hunting attempts, date raping their ghouls and touchstones, and ripping them off by having their ghoul show up and pick everyone's pockets" -> How can you not do all of this better with Dominate? Seeing as the targets won't even remember in that case? How is this Daeva always aware of all hunting attempts and where they're happening? Are all of the other players' ghouls and touchstones sexually into her? (By Rose's express words, Awe doesn't automatically make people want you sexually or agree to sleep with you, I can find the quote if you want...) Why are people not retaliating after their pockets are clearly emptied each and every time the Daeva is near? So many questions, and none of them related to Awe.

                            Also, you don't have to do anything specific to activate Awe. It just lends a supernatural grace to everything you do and say from that point onwards. So whether people arrive before or after doesn't matter, it's active all the time and enhancing you all the time. They see you when you have Awe on, boom, "ooh, so graceful". Doesn't matter when you activate it.

                            Awe is activate on the vampire, not on the onlookers. In RPG terminology it would be described as a "buff" to yourself, not a "debuff" on others.

                            But yeah, anyway, the entire problem is allowing Awe to be mind control when it only buffs social rolls and takes away negatives (alright, it does slightly more than that, but not when it comes to convincing people to do things). If you wouldn't allow someone with very high social skills to do something with a roll, you shouldn't allow a vampire with approximately the same dicepool with Awe from doing it either. Is the gist of it.
                            Last edited by Unahim; 07-02-2018, 05:38 PM.

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                            • Actually I think that, compared to other disciplines, Majesty is the most underpowered until the 3rd dot. Then it starts to become aligned, or even more powerful, than other counterpart.
                              Even Nightmare 1, despite it is the most similar and almost a reversed copy of Awe, is quite more powerful than it thanks to 2 turns hallucinations.

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                              • Question: The talk about Majesty and lashing out and mortals has me thinking about ghoul v. ghoul. Ghouls aren't quite mortal (they give up any supernatural merits they may have possessed). Neither are they Kindred. They can't lash out. Does that mean a ghoul subjected to Majesty by another ghoul is pretty much screwed? Is there a ghoul-specific method for ghouls to deal with this that gives them a bit more protection against other ghouls only? The ghoul book doesn't go into this as far as I recall.

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