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  • I`m having a little trouble with animalism 3 numbers. Like, If a player summons a horde of rats(hundreds), how do I calculate its damage pool? Most humans could be killed by like, 2 or 3 rats biting them endlessly to feed on the vitae, but hundreds? Is there any way to calculate it or is animalism 3 that overpower?


    Check my homebrews:
    Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd, Melissidae
    Ordo Dracul Coils: Primal Blood
    Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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    • Animalism 3 is something everyone appears to struggle with unless they're using it as a roleplaying tool rather than try to interact with it mechanically. I.e. it works as long as everyone simply reacts to it happening or the ST just narrates the effects of it being used. Anyone who wishes to interact with it mechanically is out of luck, and that's honestly a huge oversight, imo.

      If you do want to use it mechanically, you'd have to slap on some solution, either homebrew or from another book. DtD has a Swarm Tilt that could work for lesser animal swarms (maybe; I don't really recall how it works). CofD has a statted dog that, iirc, says it can stand in for a swarm of smaller animals (not what I'd recommend, but might as well mention it) as well as the Zombies! Tilt along with a statblock representing a horde that could work. The prerelease update of Deviant has optional rules for mass combat that can be used in tandem with the animal stat blocks in that one google document that's stickied on this forum.
      I personally think the best way to handle it with the tools given would be a variation of the Zombies! Tilt and simply do a simplified Horror statblock based on the type of animal. Just skip the Dread Powers and slap on whatever natural abilities the species should have. At least for smaller animals that are numerous enough to swarm. For large dogs and other animals that are not numerous enough and/or too dangerous to simplify to a single Environmental Tilt, I'd instead use the proper animal statblock combined with the new rules in Deviant if there's too many to roll for in a timely manner.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
        I`m having a little trouble with animalism 3 numbers. Like, If a player summons a horde of rats(hundreds), how do I calculate its damage pool? Most humans could be killed by like, 2 or 3 rats biting them endlessly to feed on the vitae, but hundreds? Is there any way to calculate it or is animalism 3 that overpower?

        Hi, Animalism 3 is very hard to modeling. I personally use Swarm rules you can find in Demon the Descent:

        Animals of Size 1 are generally best represented by swarms, flocks and other groupings of the animals. Swarms are measured by their radius in yards. A swarm inflicts one point of bashing damage to anyone within its radius. A swarm can inflict more damage by condensing. Every time the swarm condenses to cover half of its full area, it inflicts one additional point of damage per turn.
        Therefore, a swarm of eight yards in radius inflicts two bashing damage per turn if it constricts down to a four yard radius, three bashing if it halves that again to a two-yard radius, and four bashing damage per turn it if condensed itself down to a one-yard radius. Though condensing doesn’t usually happen all that often in nature (save in the case of creatures such as killer bees), it is an easy enough thing for a being with supernatural powers to command them to do so.
        Armor is effective against a swarm only if it covers one’s full body, but even then it provides only half its rating. In addition, targets are distracted by the swarm, suffering –2 dice on all rolls while they are within the radius, even if they’re not specifically attacked.
        The point is:

        1. Animalism 3 is not suddenly and instantly summoning all the swarm
        2. Through Animalism 3 also bigger animals can come (dogs, cats....bears...)

        To address the timing issue I personally building up a damage value, 1 per turn, up to the cap of the successes rolled during the activation. This pool is following the above mentioned swarm's rules (no armor, -2 penality, etc).
        In case bigger animals, like dogs or bears, are fitting, I would have them arrive at the latest turn of the pool building up, and consider them separately (about the number of such animals this is actually your call).

        It might seem too powerful but consider that the damage is built up with time (4 turns to have 4 damages per turn in example), you might need to success in a first roll to spry the vitae directly on the target (against which I only allow a defense roll (defensex2) and action lost) otherwise you need an extra turn to command the swarm to attack after they had eaten the blood you did spread.
        Last edited by Marcus; 01-14-2021, 10:35 AM.

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        • This happened to today session, at the Elysium:

          Premise:

          1. PCs, got to London for the first time and not presented themeselves to the Prince, have been attacked through an Ambush because investigating on something they should not

          2. PCs broke up the Masquerade several time to catch and hunt the assailants. They manage to kill one of them.

          3. Few nights after OCs attacks the sheriff before he could speak thinking he was someone of the enemies of them. They are captured and taken to the Prince at rhe Elysium before all the kindred and Prinogens to be processed.

          One of the survived assiliant, legit member of that domain, enter accusing them to have attacked themeselves and killed one of its coterie while they were traing to investigate and catch the Masquerade violators.

          PCs said the truth, accusing him to try to cover something they don't want to be discovered.

          Several social rolls until one of the PC said: Prince, pls use your gift on bot me and himself forcing us tonsay the truth and you'll have your answer.

          How would you handle that? Why the Prince should refuse with a convincing argunent (convincing for the player)?

          Comment


          • The foremost reason, the Prince doesn't know the PCs. They sneaked into town unannounced and immediately began shitting on the general order of the domain.
            1. They arrive and pointedly did not present themselves.
            2. The PCs interfered in an investigation being conducted by recognized kindred.
            3. The PCs violated the Masquerade.
            4. The PCs attacked and murdered a resident kindred.
            5. The PCs attacked the sheriff.
            And finally, #6
            How in the holy hell do the PCs know the Prince has a power that can compel someone to speak the truth? Without knowing ANY relevant context to explain how they're aware of the Prince's power spread, I'd call that some massive metagaming bullshit and probably have the Prince order their execution on the spot.
            The PCs may well have evidence that convinces the Prince not to execute them or sentence them to a few centuries of torpor immediately, but I don't see any prince realistically holding praxis for long if they allow any wandering group of assholes stroll into the domain, violate the Masquerade, murder a resident, and assault the sheriff with impunity.

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            • Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
              The foremost reason, the Prince doesn't know the PCs. They sneaked into town unannounced and immediately began shitting on the general order of the domain.
              1. They arrive and pointedly did not present themselves.
              2. The PCs interfered in an investigation being conducted by recognized kindred.
              3. The PCs violated the Masquerade.
              4. The PCs attacked and murdered a resident kindred.
              5. The PCs attacked the sheriff.
              And finally, #6
              How in the holy hell do the PCs know the Prince has a power that can compel someone to speak the truth? Without knowing ANY relevant context to explain how they're aware of the Prince's power spread, I'd call that some massive metagaming bullshit and probably have the Prince order their execution on the spot.
              The PCs may well have evidence that convinces the Prince not to execute them or sentence them to a few centuries of torpor immediately, but I don't see any prince realistically holding praxis for long if they allow any wandering group of assholes stroll into the domain, violate the Masquerade, murder a resident, and assault the sheriff with impunity.

              "Compelling the truth" could be seen as a matter of Dominate or Majesty, both disciplines that are far from uncommon in the bag of tricks of princes in general, to pull a confession out of the target. So, kindred society being what it is, while completely an assumption on the PC's part, it's not a ludricous one in the least.

              That said, who's to say either the witness or the PCs haven't been preemptively tampered with, to fabricate a kind of truth, in the first place? That is also definitely something a reasonably experienced prince would be aware of the possibility of, making the whole argument less effective than the PC imagines it to be.


              The 2 big questions in the situation, as i see it at least, are:
              - Why would a coterie of kindred enter another city unannounced to do any sort of investigation in the first place? That can and should be seen as a foolish thing to do at best and brazen open flouting of the prince's authority by outsiders at worst.

              - Truth or not is immaterial to nocturnal politics! The PCs entered unnanounced the city, violated the masquerade and killed kindred residents (that were useful to it) - what can they offer as compensation for these acts in terms of information, resources or service that would be of value towards the consolidation/preservation of its rule?

              One does not sit in the throne to serve others or worry too much about the fictions of justice or truth, pshaw!
              Last edited by Baaldam; 01-15-2021, 11:45 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tsusasi View Post
                The foremost reason, the Prince doesn't know the PCs. They sneaked into town unannounced and immediately began shitting on the general order of the domain.
                1. They arrive and pointedly did not present themselves.
                2. The PCs interfered in an investigation being conducted by recognized kindred.
                3. The PCs violated the Masquerade.
                4. The PCs attacked and murdered a resident kindred.
                5. The PCs attacked the sheriff.
                And finally, #6
                How in the holy hell do the PCs know the Prince has a power that can compel someone to speak the truth? Without knowing ANY relevant context to explain how they're aware of the Prince's power spread, I'd call that some massive metagaming bullshit and probably have the Prince order their execution on the spot.
                The PCs may well have evidence that convinces the Prince not to execute them or sentence them to a few centuries of torpor immediately, but I don't see any prince realistically holding praxis for long if they allow any wandering group of assholes stroll into the domain, violate the Masquerade, murder a resident, and assault the sheriff with impunity.

                Points 1 to 5 are exactly the reason they were risking their un-life indeed. Two of them (players) are new to Masquerade so I need to let them understand how things works and why but I prefer doing that in game, hence without to be TOO HARD . But still their execution was one option indeed.

                They knew Prince (or other in that court) had Dominate because, they know he's an elder Ventrue (thus is very unlikely he do not have one or 2 dots at least in dominate) and the prince itself used it to shut up one of them being way to much sarcastic, talking over to him (I know another reason to have them executed, but for the reason above I tried to be more patient - it actually worked indeed as the player couldn't speak for a good part of the speech and when the Prince freed him he was far more polite).
                By a story point of view, reason why Prince didn't kill them is because they spoke about something that attracted his attention (without getting into details, they reveled they found the blood of a long time disappeared elder of the Ordo, into a substance that was lastly spreading among the homeless of the city making them addicted and violent. Prince basically want to hear and know about that smelling something wrong. So he pretended to be generous giving the possibility to the 3 PCs to clean up their mess restoring the masquerade (warning them they would have been closely spied in case they intended to escape), while the Sheriff would have investigate on the two versions of the story. This is obviously only a story to feed to the primogens and other kindred to take time. He's also secretly summoned them privately to make the deal of continuing to investigate on that giving him any update.

                The point of my question remains though: I can see why Auspex can't be used as a proof in a judgment; only Auspex user knows the truth and he could turn the "truth" to its own convenience. But Dominate is quite different. You can command to say the truth to both parties, and you are compelled to say the truth (your truth) in front of the whole audience.

                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                "Compelling the truth" could be seen as a matter of Dominate or Majesty, both disciplines that are far from uncommon in the bag of tricks of princes in general, to pull a confession out of the target. So, kindred society being what it is, while completely an assumption on the PC's part, it's not a ludricous one in the least.

                That said, who's to say either the witness or the PCs haven't been preemptively tampered with, to fabricate a kind of truth, in the first place? That is also definitely something a reasonably experienced prince would be aware of the possibility of, making the whole argument less effective than the PC imagines it to be.


                The 2 big questions in the situation, as i see it at least, are:
                - Why would a coterie of kindred enter another city unannounced to do any sort of investigation in the first place? That can and should be seen as a foolish thing to do at best and brazen open flouting of the prince's authority by outsiders at worst.

                - Truth or not is immaterial to nocturnal politics! The PCs entered unnanounced the city, violated the masquerade and killed kindred residents (that were useful to it) - what can they offer as compensation for these acts in terms of information, resources or service that would be of value towards the consolidation/preservation of its rule?

                One does not sit in the throne to serve others or worry too much about the fictions of justice or truth, pshaw!
                You have a point here. Sure, the truth can be fabricated, sure, although it is for sure quite hard for some neonate to be able to modify their own memory and or the one of the accuser. Because their proposal was to actually dominate both the parties: the accuser (who was laying trying to revert their attempt to ambush them as a right act against themselves) and the players who were saying the truth indeed.

                The point is: it's hard to play these political lying game into Elysium, justifying to both players and PCs why not just using powers like Dominate, Auspex to know where dwell the truth.
                And as I said, yes, their crimes are enough to have them killed, non the less they justify themselves to be attacked and act to defend, which is making a huge difference if the Prince want to pretend to be fair and right in front of his court.

                EDIT: as a side note: I handled it having the prince asking the accuser to freely submit its supernatural inquisition. He obliviously politely declined saying that this is not custom in a "civil" domain to be mind controlled and that its word should count more than the one of parasites intruder. He will probably submit himself to this inquisition once he got prepared through dominate changing its memory (maybe through dominate 3 triggering the false memory to come out just for the inquiries)
                Last edited by Marcus; 01-16-2021, 06:37 AM.

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                • The PCs maybe tweaking their memories shouldn't figure highly in the Prince or Sheriff's PoV actually - but they don't know the PCs in the first place, so how would one know they are not the brainwashed puppets of some 3rd party, in the city (the tale about them being from another city a completely memory edited fabrication) or outside it?

                  Remember how it's implied in the clanbooks that Felix is a Khaibit ancient (if not a methuselah) that right out of torpor brainwashed a Daeva elder in believing Felix was his childe and presenting him to many other kindred as exactly so? Now consider that Felix is a kind of righteous and mostly well-meaning guy when compared to lots of other kindred and imagine what their degree of Dominate abuse on people around them can be... and how as a prince you might have to deal with variants of this kind of trickery all the time. So testimony, willing or coerced, is worth almost nothing.

                  Evidence, obtained through mundane investigation, Auspex, blood magic, weird supernatural merits or whatever, might be of greater value. But again, politics comes first, if the prince does not have some particular reason to care about truth more than expediency.

                  Because the PCs dropped the ball big time there - entering a city uninvited may not be such a big deal, as long as you present yourself before being caught. If you are, everything you say is unreliable ("everything you say and do will be used against you", so to speak) and any other tradition break commited gets amped with a "tried to avoid recognition/capture" extra. They are screwed.

                  Real questions are:
                  - What can the prince or other kindred in power gain from sparing the PCs?
                  - What kind of compensation can they offer - in information, favors & services - to make up for their crimes?
                  - And how will both things - the destruction of a local coterie and their continued presence in the city, now chained to either prince, sheriff, the mentors-patrons of the destroyed coterie or some other individual of power - change the dynamics of power in the domain from that point onward? Not to mention individuals with more personal ties to the destroyed kindred repositioning themselves (openly or in secret) in the factions' dance out of spite and/or a desire for revenge not adressed by whatever ruling comes out in the end.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 01-16-2021, 10:06 AM.

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                  • Would it be feasible to a vampire with Auspex 4 to develop something akin to "Tactical Telepathy" from Hurt Locker? Like, how close to the actual Telepathy merit is Auspex 4?


                    Check my homebrews:
                    Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd, Melissidae
                    Ordo Dracul Coils: Primal Blood
                    Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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                    • Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
                      Would it be feasible to a vampire with Auspex 4 to develop something akin to "Tactical Telepathy" from Hurt Locker? Like, how close to the actual Telepathy merit is Auspex 4?

                      Well, i would say compare their texts and decide for yourself how close the Telepathy merit and Auspex 4 power are and roll things from there.

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                      • Is there a devotion or can Nightmare implant a fear into someone? like if someone isn't afraid of spiders can they be made afraid of spiders?

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                        • Originally posted by Grimmi05 View Post
                          Is there a devotion or can Nightmare implant a fear into someone? like if someone isn't afraid of spiders can they be made afraid of spiders?
                          Why not.
                          Nightmare 3, by default, make you able to inflict delusion which may lead to be scared of something: spiders are alien ans evil creatures.

                          Buy also a devotion between Nightmare 3 + vigor 1 can let you implant new fears. Or Nightmare + dominate

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                          • Hi,
                            It's surely not the first time someone is asking, but I couldn't find any clear answer :

                            - The Max Vitae/turn is an absolute limit ? (related to Tricks of the damned & Disciplines). A BP1 Vampire using Predatory aspect (Protean**) to manifest his claws can no longer use one Vitae to heal damages on his turn ?
                            - How could the same BP1 Vampire use Beast's skin (Protean***), who has a 2 Vitae cost ?

                            Thanks for your help !

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Falcina View Post
                              Hi,
                              It's surely not the first time someone is asking, but I couldn't find any clear answer :

                              - The Max Vitae/turn is an absolute limit ? (related to Tricks of the damned & Disciplines). A BP1 Vampire using Predatory aspect (Protean**) to manifest his claws can no longer use one Vitae to heal damages on his turn ?
                              - How could the same BP1 Vampire use Beast's skin (Protean***), who has a 2 Vitae cost ?

                              Thanks for your help !
                              Right. Bp gives you the limit. BP1 can use either protean 2 or healing himself, not both.
                              To activate powers requiring more vitae he can spend the blood through 2 turns and the effect will take place only when the full price is paid. Which means a younger vampire takes more time to activate an effect that an older can in just one turn.

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                              • Is there any official, in 1st or 2nd edition, way of transforming someone into a vampire by cursing them? Like, magically speaking. Akin to a witch or something cursing someone with vampirism?


                                Check my homebrews:
                                Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd, Melissidae
                                Ordo Dracul Coils: Primal Blood
                                Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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