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  • Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
    What constitutes an apocryphal Coil for the Ordo Dracul?
    From the Ordo Dracul book, p176, "Whereas the Coils of the Dragon are meant to overcome the curse laid upon Dracula and all Kindred, these apocryphal pseudo-Coils either subvert the power that was bestowed with the curse, or warp the nature of the curse without truly overcoming it.
    These philosophies are not officially welcome within the covenant. Knowledge of these powers is forbidden. Dragons found to have studied them should expect to be severely punished. Knowledge of these powers is one of the few ways for a Dragon to be driven out of the covenant — though most such Kindred are rendered into ash within a few nights thereafter."

    The covenant has changed a bit but it's a sound foundation to work off of.

    Would a Transhumanist Coil be considered apocryphal? Like, something that let's the vampire augment itself with cybernetics and artificial limbs, organs and stuff like that?
    I'd say yes, if only because that just shifts the arbiter of their immortality from something like God or Fate to whatever engineer made them. Plus technology is notoriously open to subversion, something the Ordo believe as a big no-no. One of the banned bloodlines among them is the Dragolescu, who can steal knowledge from the dead, but potentially open themselves to being taken over by ghosts. Unless you had some cutting edge, isolated technology that would always remain beyond the ability of someone with Computers 5 to just turn off, then you're sort of opening yourself to the same issue. Basically the same reason they don't make big human suits to walk around in while protecting them from sunlight, it's just sidestepping the issue and not improving the vampire.

    Plus artificial organs aren't quite necessary given the undead nature of the vampire, who can turn their flesh as hard as steel and doesn't need to really digest anything but blood.

    And of course, cybernetics don't really have to fit in a mystical Coil and can usually be something you craft without supernatural help. It might actually be something the Carthians embrace more than the Ordo Dracul.

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    • Is there any rules for distributing Beats because of a mentor? Like, in an Ordo Dracul Mentor-Neonates group, is there any way for the Neonates to get more beats from studying, or for the mentor to distribute or gain Beats from teaching? I'm asking ruleswise.


      Check my homebrews:
      Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd, Melissidae
      Ordo Dracul Coils: Primal Blood
      Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

      Comment


      • Yeah, it’s called awarding Beats for fulfilling Aspirations and awarding Beats after completing a game session.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
          Is there any rules for distributing Beats because of a mentor? Like, in an Ordo Dracul Mentor-Neonates group, is there any way for the Neonates to get more beats from studying, or for the mentor to distribute or gain Beats from teaching? I'm asking ruleswise.
          There is also the Tutelage Merit in Guide to the Night, p. 127.


          Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

          Comment


          • Is it correct that you can wake without vitae after falling into torpor without someone rousing you?

            Per VTR 2.0, "At the end of a vampire’s turn, after any reflexive healing, if her last (rightmost) Health box is filled with lethal damage, she falls to torpor. If she’s in daysleep, and has no blood with which to awaken, she instead drifts into the torpor. As well, a vampire can voluntarily fall into torpor, to shake off the feeding limitations imposed by her Blood Potency.

            During the first day of torpor, the vampire subconsciously spends as much Vitae as it takes to heal any wounds she may have. If, after spending all her Vitae, she still suffers a wound in her last three Health boxes, consider her Humanity one dot lower for determining how long she slumbers. For every twenty-five years a vampire remains in torpor, she loses a dot of Blood Potency.

            Use the following chart to determine how long a character must remain in torpor. Multiply the base duration (based on the vampire’s Humanity dots) by her Blood Potency. After that amount of time in torpor, she can awaken."

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            • Yes, that's true. You wake up with 0 vitae when the time has passed (probably in frenzy) and you have a full night to feed up before to fall into torpor again.

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              • Merits like Crusader and Sorcerous Eunuch note that they protect against "magic", but don't really elaborate on what "magic" means, and they don't specifically say Blood Magic. So, what forms of magic are they meant to apply to? is it just Blood Magic, or is it more than that?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Shadowdragon View Post
                  Merits like Crusader and Sorcerous Eunuch note that they protect against "magic", but don't really elaborate on what "magic" means, and they don't specifically say Blood Magic. So, what forms of magic are they meant to apply to? is it just Blood Magic, or is it more than that?
                  Let's start with Crusader merit. There are 3 different powers here.
                  Shield Against Sorcery (•): There's a line that says "Any magic targeting your character". It doesn't say what constitute magic, but it says any magic, wich is literally anything that is described as being magic, like supernal spells, Cruác, Theban Sorcery, on sorcerous Eunuch this becomes a little more clear.
                  Silence (••): Says that "If successful, the attack silences the enemy, which may prevent him from casting spells or using some Disciplines so long as the damage remains." wich means, anything that depends on voice, like some spells or issuing commands with the Dominate discipline will not work. Interesting to note that you can still be Mesmerized, but the Vampire will no be able to talk while the damage remains.
                  A Hammer Against Witches (•••): Says that "The victim must be casting a spell or ritual of some sort, or a Discipline using an extended action.", so, it considers extended actions to do supernatural things rituals and spells.

                  Now, the other merit, Sorcerous Eunuch says that "Any dice pool for a magical effect targeting your character suffers his Resolve as a penalty.", so, anything that the ST considers as magic, like Supernal spells, Cruác, etc, receive this penalty. If you are not convinced about blood sorcery, the merit also says that "As result of this, he can never learn Theban Sorcery, Crúac, or any other blood sorceries.", so it's safe to say that Theban Sorcery and Cruác are considered like magic.


                  Check my homebrews:
                  Vampire Bloodlines: Abhartach, Kiasyd, Melissidae
                  Ordo Dracul Coils: Primal Blood
                  Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post

                    Let's start with Crusader merit. There are 3 different powers here.
                    Shield Against Sorcery (•): There's a line that says "Any magic targeting your character". It doesn't say what constitute magic, but it says any magic, wich is literally anything that is described as being magic, like supernal spells, Cruác, Theban Sorcery, on sorcerous Eunuch this becomes a little more clear.
                    Silence (••): Says that "If successful, the attack silences the enemy, which may prevent him from casting spells or using some Disciplines so long as the damage remains." wich means, anything that depends on voice, like some spells or issuing commands with the Dominate discipline will not work. Interesting to note that you can still be Mesmerized, but the Vampire will no be able to talk while the damage remains.
                    A Hammer Against Witches (•••): Says that "The victim must be casting a spell or ritual of some sort, or a Discipline using an extended action.", so, it considers extended actions to do supernatural things rituals and spells.

                    Now, the other merit, Sorcerous Eunuch says that "Any dice pool for a magical effect targeting your character suffers his Resolve as a penalty.", so, anything that the ST considers as magic, like Supernal spells, Cruác, etc, receive this penalty. If you are not convinced about blood sorcery, the merit also says that "As result of this, he can never learn Theban Sorcery, Crúac, or any other blood sorceries.", so it's safe to say that Theban Sorcery and Cruác are considered like magic.

                    So, for Shield Against Sorcery and Sorcerous Eunuch things like disciplines, contracts, haunts, numena, etc would all count as magic? That's pretty amazing for something as cheap as a merit.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Shadowdragon View Post
                      So, for Shield Against Sorcery and Sorcerous Eunuch things like disciplines, contracts, haunts, numena, etc would all count as magic? That's pretty amazing for something as cheap as a merit.
                      Not really. Within VtR "sorcery" should exclusively refer to blood sorcery, and it's specifically sorcery both Crusader and Sorcerous Eunuch focuses on. The two exceptions are Silence that affects any powers that requires speech (for completely mundane reasons) and A Hammer Against Witches which works against both sorcery and Disciplines using extended actions.

                      When it comes to sorcery from other games, it's simply not specified so it's completely up to the ST to decide. But I would recommend this rule of thumb: Any category of powers that generally takes more than a turn to activate should be considered sorcery in this context. That means Mage spells, Ceremonies, Pack/Wolf Rites, and Obcasus Rites, but not Haunts, Gifts, or Atavisms/Nightmares.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by viridian sun View Post
                        Per VTR 2.0, "At the end of a vampire’s turn, after any reflexive healing, if her last (rightmost) Health box is filled with lethal damage, she falls to torpor. If she’s in daysleep, and has no blood with which to awaken, she instead drifts into the torpor. As well, a vampire can voluntarily fall into torpor, to shake off the feeding limitations imposed by her Blood Potency.
                        Damn, I never read that close enough before - I always played it as you drop the second you fill your track up with lethal damage. But you get a full turn of action before you collapse eh?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wade L View Post

                          Damn, I never read that close enough before - I always played it as you drop the second you fill your track up with lethal damage. But you get a full turn of action before you collapse eh?
                          Healing up is reflexive. If, inside the same turn you fill out all your health boxes, you still have vitae to spend, yo can heal yourself up.

                          E.g.:
                          You are BP 5 vampire with 7 health fighting against a lonley and sad werewolf.
                          The werewolf claws you for 16 bashing damages, which translate into 2 aggravated and 5 lethal damages.
                          You can spend up to 5 vitae (although 1 would still be enough to save yourself from torpor), to heal up 5 lethal damages, ramaining at the end of this very turn, with only 2 aggravated damages.
                          Let's say next turn the werewolf bites you for other 10 lethal damages (not bashing), as you only have 5 free health boxes, the 10 lethals are converted into 5 aggravated (for a total of 7 agg) which means you are destroyed as you cannot heal aggravated damages in a turn (you may only save yourself with Resilience).
                          Last edited by Marcus; 02-27-2021, 06:49 AM.

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                          • We've always ignored that grace period because it can turn combat incredibly deadly. Beating someone to torpor (when a stake isn't at hand) is a good way to end a fight without killing the other part. But no one wants to go torpid at the hands of your enemies so anyone who has Vitae left to spend would want to heal at least one lethal damage to avoid torpor. That leads to them amassing more and more aggravated damage until they risk final death with another hit due to wrap around.
                            In normal circumstances you'd try to surrender of flee before that but combat for Kindred tend to lead to Frenzy (if not started by someone Frenzying) and you can't change your goal during Frenzy, meaning anytime a Frenzying vampire is acting out of agression they'll continue until they've won (which doesn't necessarily mean killing the other part) or been beaten to torpor/death. Since the Frenzying vampire isn't allowed to act counter to their goal, allowing them to avoid torpor by healing during their turn means they'll always try to do that if possible.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                              We've always ignored that grace period because it can turn combat incredibly deadly. Beating someone to torpor (when a stake isn't at hand) is a good way to end a fight without killing the other part. But no one wants to go torpid at the hands of your enemies so anyone who has Vitae left to spend would want to heal at least one lethal damage to avoid torpor. That leads to them amassing more and more aggravated damage until they risk final death with another hit due to wrap around.
                              In normal circumstances you'd try to surrender of flee before that but combat for Kindred tend to lead to Frenzy (if not started by someone Frenzying) and you can't change your goal during Frenzy, meaning anytime a Frenzying vampire is acting out of agression they'll continue until they've won (which doesn't necessarily mean killing the other part) or been beaten to torpor/death. Since the Frenzying vampire isn't allowed to act counter to their goal, allowing them to avoid torpor by healing during their turn means they'll always try to do that if possible.
                              Personally I think the grace period works. It presents an interesting choice in combat for players - do I heal (or spend my blood on something else) now, or do I keep 1 vitae in reserve so that I can reflexively heal at the end of the turn and avoid torpor? Also, fights between Vampires should to some extent be battles of attrition. A Blood Potency 5 Vampire's main advantage over Blood Potency 1 is the larger pool of vitae and vitae per turn. Making them go torpid instantly when full of lethal negates this advantage to a certain extent - it makes it easy for a group of weak PCs to "alpha strike" a powerful NPC - taking them straight to full lethal in a single turn using celerity, willpower, blood buff, all-out attack and the like before the older Vampire can react.

                              It feels right to me for a frenzying Vampire to just keep coming until their blood is exhausted. If you don't want to kill them for whatever reason, then it pays to be prepared - bring a stake or some restraints and a character who can reliably get the target in a grapple, or else be ready to fight very carefully. If all else fails, run away. I would also say that a kindred who is frenzying with the intent to murder other characters is likely to spend all their available blood towards that end (through Physical Intensity) rather than saving it for the purpose of healing.

                              In many ways, beating an opponent into torpor is a much bigger victory than simply destroying them. They're now completely at your mercy - diablerie, burying your opponent in concrete, surgically removing their limbs, teeth, eyes etc. and then allowing them to wake from torpor - all of these are now on the table. With this in mind, it often makes sense for Vampires to fight to the last, welcoming final death over whatever else their attackers might have in store for them. On the other hand, a frenzing kindred who think that they might be treated leniently (e.g. if they're frenzying and attacking their coterie-mates) could spend the willpower to take control for a turn, opt not to heal, and therefore willingly put themselves into torpor

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                              • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

                                Healing up is reflexive. If, inside the same turn you fill out all your health boxes, you still have vitae to spend, yo can heal yourself up.
                                Oh, I knew healing was reflexive, I just assumed that when your track filled with Lethal you were down.

                                This is an interesting twist in that it makes Torpor more than just "unconsciousness but for vampires".

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