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  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Werewolves consuming the flesh of a human or wolf inflict aggravated damage. Your mileage may vary, but in general Kindred still have human flesh — vampirism negates some of its maintenance requirements, but it is a human body for at least as far forward from the Embrace as it would have held together without the Cleansing resetting the timer on attached pieces.
    It says, flesh of an human. Kindred are not humans and they, by default, downgrade aggravated to lethals (and lethals to bashing) and, in fact, werewolf bite deal lethals to kindred

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    • Originally posted by Marcus View Post

      It says, flesh of an human. Kindred are not humans and they, by default, downgrade aggravated to lethals (and lethals to bashing) and, in fact, werewolf bite deal lethals to kindred

      To be fair, vampires don't downgrade aggravated by default, they downgrade the lethal damage from common sources, werewolves jaws are not natural and so they deal lethal but I agree that them dealing aggravated wouldn't really fit since werewolves do so by absorbing essence and vampires don't have any.

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      • Originally posted by Marcus View Post
        It says, flesh of an human. Kindred are not humans and they, by default, downgrade aggravated to lethals (and lethals to bashing) and, in fact, werewolf bite deal lethals to kindred
        Per both corebooks:

        Originally posted by VtR2e Core
        Few rare perversions of nature — Disciplines, Devotions, and sorceries — cause aggravated wounds to Kindred. Some masters of the Protean Discipline hone their claws and fangs to such vicious ends; this breeds a healthy fear and respect of clan Gangrel within most courts.

        Aggravated wounds look completely unnatural. They’re perversions of nature that tax the Masquerade. Each vampire wounds differently. Flesh may become brittle and burn like paper. Tissue may bubble and stink. Blackened veins may streak across the victim’s body. Foamy pustules may taint the area around the injury. Whatever the method, aggravated wounds appear as manifestations of the natural world violently eliminating something that does not belong.
        Originally posted by WtF2e Core
        [Uratha] can eat the flesh of wolves and humans [to gain Essence]. For every point of damage caused by an Uratha’s bite, they can choose to ingest the flesh and gain a point of Essence. This is a stark violation of the Oath of the Moon, and always a Harmony breaking point toward the spirit. When devouring flesh for Essence, the Uratha causes aggravated wounds.
        Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
        To be fair, vampires don't downgrade aggravated by default, they downgrade the lethal damage from common sources, werewolves jaws are not natural and so they deal lethal but I agree that them dealing aggravated wouldn't really fit since werewolves do so by absorbing essence and vampires don't have any.
        Werewolves get Essence by absorbing Essence in the case of drawing it from loci or from downed spirits who were the target of the Sacred Hunt. Wolves, humans, and the auspice moon don't have Essence stores the werewolf is pulling from (barring the extra Essence generated by the Reception Lunacy Condition).

        There is likewise nothing to actually suggest that vampires do not have Essence at the same sort of level as wolves and humans for the magical purposes of the Great Hunter's descendants tapping into the force of consumption undergirding their branch of the metaphysics. They have flesh. It comes from a human body. It can be eaten. The ones doing the eating are magical beings whose jaws are suffused with the resonance of predation to such a degree that their human bite attack does more severe damage than normal. The act is taboo for the ones doing the biting, but offers power and sustenance.

        Separated vampire flesh generally sticks around at least as long as a piece of a corpse as old as the vampire would have, which means most neonates and some ancillae (at the very least) won't be giving werewolves a mouthful of ashes for their trouble.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          Per both corebooks:




          Werewolves get Essence by absorbing Essence in the case of drawing it from loci or from downed spirits who were the target of the Sacred Hunt. Wolves, humans, and the auspice moon don't have Essence stores the werewolf is pulling from (barring the extra Essence generated by the Reception Lunacy Condition).

          There is likewise nothing to actually suggest that vampires do not have Essence at the same sort of level as wolves and humans for the magical purposes of the Great Hunter's descendants tapping into the force of consumption undergirding their branch of the metaphysics. They have flesh. It comes from a human body. It can be eaten. The ones doing the eating are magical beings whose jaws are suffused with the resonance of predation to such a degree that their human bite attack does more severe damage than normal. The act is taboo for the ones doing the biting, but offers power and sustenance.

          Separated vampire flesh generally sticks around at least as long as a piece of a corpse as old as the vampire would have, which means most neonates and some ancillae (at the very least) won't be giving werewolves a mouthful of ashes for their trouble.

          This is one of the many things we won't be getting an answer unless an author clarify it, the Wtf2e book specify that its either wolves or humans, vampires are not humans and werewolves jaws do not cause aggravated to them by default, the kind of thing that cause aggravated to vampires are either banes or some truly horryfing magic and werewolves jaws are neither.

          Personally I think that the aggravated damage is due to the fact that werewolves are physically removing chunk of important shit out of someone's body, this might be a problem for mortals or werewolves since even with their regenaration, massive physical trauma can still do a werewolf in, a vampire is a walking corpse who doesn't need to be whole to function hence them not getting aggravated damage from the wolves jaws.

          There is also nothing that suggest vampires have any essence either so I would guess that its up to the story teller unless we get some official clarification on the matter.

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          • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


            To be honest, I always thought that dealing lethal by default (they even specified vampires) because "father wolf blah blah blah" was stupid and a bit given to Apocalypse players to appease them for werewolves not causing aggravated by default, vampires are supposed to be durable, hell they even have trouble killing eachother, also a werewolf dealing bashing would still dust a vampire in a couple of rounds, crippled defense and plus 3 from gauru plus any brawl dots you have, with a specialty for using claws that deals +2 and immediately allow you to grapple, you are going to fuck up a vampire anyway, add spirits and gifts that only makes you better and killing and you wouldn't see that much of a difference.

            Rergarding eating flesh causing aggravated, I think it has to do with the fact that vampires don't really have any essence to talk about, it would make sense since they can't interact with spirits in any way, shape or form.
            The themes and moods of a game that has a theme and conflict in the form of "The Wolf Must Hunt" that empahsizes the alienation that comes with inherently being an apex predator in a world where even monsters might not want to commit that far is something of a far stretch from "father wolf blah blah blah." Werewolf is owed to be the sort of thing you always have to wonder about being lunch to.

            That said, I feel like you've somehow still managed to over read the advantages a werewolf has, and I really can't shake the feeling that you have a misapprehension about how violent conflict in Chronicles works (which is not a thing to feel bad, because it seems like a lot of people don't properly grok it) or how werewolf operates in relationship to it, particularly given how there's a lot of design deliberately being done to distance from Apocalypse's more direct warrior take on the subject. The stack of unsourced benefits do in fact specific things that work better in some contexts and not in others, and it's not like CHronicles plays out like a game of Dungeons and Dragons where everyone stands around just trying to kill each other.

            In relationship to that structure, though, vampires as a general rule are fixers and arrangers, their durability itself being a thing that has direct costs that demand immediate payments. I wouldn't be quick to discount any vampire who did dedicate themselves to a apex predator way of life, even in comparison to the Uratha, but that requires being about that, and most vampires (even the Gangrel) have more to gain playing a game of "board control" than the more direct apex predator approach. There are ways the Kindred, in this way, are still going to be more prey animal than not.

            Finally I think there's a context being ignored on the whole "Agg damage bite for Essence", which is namely that one assumes taking giant fucking bites out of someone requires similar conditions to which a werewolf hunts down a spirit to submission-namely, the Aggravated argument needs you hunt a thing to submission. That said though, even if you don't account for anything about essence bearing, the context of that being a scenario where you take a Big Honking Bite out of a prey animal you hunted down to submission is going to lends itself to Aggravated damage. I don't how dead you are, a wolf mauling my shoulder, upper arm, and upper chest/back enough to fit that context is probably going to qualify for aggravated damage as much as shoving an arm into a wood chipper would qualify for aggravated damage.

            But mostly I popped it to say "Hi! Has anyone mentioned how abrasive you come off with even your more reasonable commentary? Because dear god, you manage to find ways to shit on things unnecessarily that doesn't help you address the problems in as helpful a way as you might like, and I feel like someone should point it out."

            Seriously, "father wolf blah blah blah"?


            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • As a clarification, in my opinion forcing vitae out of the body and "burning" vitae reflexively are two different things.
              The latter is described as a "natural" thing for vampires and dilutes the "power density" of the blood.
              The first instead is described as a thing that the Beast doesn t like to do, so i think it requires some sort of concentration for the vampire, at least an instant action.
              For werewolf bites, even if part of the blood enter in their throat the core books specify that it would not contain vitae, the vampire should be able to concentrate while being bitten to direct its vitae to the mouth, and only if the werewolf holds the mouth on the flesh for at least one turn.
              Also i don t know if werewolf eating vampire s flesh should gain Essence or deal aggravated, but i m sure that in this case (as the core book states) the ingested chunks of flesh would contain a lot of true Vitae

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              • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                The themes and moods of a game that has a theme and conflict in the form of "The Wolf Must Hunt" that empahsizes the alienation that comes with inherently being an apex predator in a world where even monsters might not want to commit that far is something of a far stretch from "father wolf blah blah blah." Werewolf is owed to be the sort of thing you always have to wonder about being lunch to.

                That said, I feel like you've somehow still managed to over read the advantages a werewolf has, and I really can't shake the feeling that you have a misapprehension about how violent conflict in Chronicles works (which is not a thing to feel bad, because it seems like a lot of people don't properly grok it) or how werewolf operates in relationship to it, particularly given how there's a lot of design deliberately being done to distance from Apocalypse's more direct warrior take on the subject. The stack of unsourced benefits do in fact specific things that work better in some contexts and not in others, and it's not like CHronicles plays out like a game of Dungeons and Dragons where everyone stands around just trying to kill each other.

                In relationship to that structure, though, vampires as a general rule are fixers and arrangers, their durability itself being a thing that has direct costs that demand immediate payments. I wouldn't be quick to discount any vampire who did dedicate themselves to a apex predator way of life, even in comparison to the Uratha, but that requires being about that, and most vampires (even the Gangrel) have more to gain playing a game of "board control" than the more direct apex predator approach. There are ways the Kindred, in this way, are still going to be more prey animal than not.

                Finally I think there's a context being ignored on the whole "Agg damage bite for Essence", which is namely that one assumes taking giant fucking bites out of someone requires similar conditions to which a werewolf hunts down a spirit to submission-namely, the Aggravated argument needs you hunt a thing to submission. That said though, even if you don't account for anything about essence bearing, the context of that being a scenario where you take a Big Honking Bite out of a prey animal you hunted down to submission is going to lends itself to Aggravated damage. I don't how dead you are, a wolf mauling my shoulder, upper arm, and upper chest/back enough to fit that context is probably going to qualify for aggravated damage as much as shoving an arm into a wood chipper would qualify for aggravated damage.

                But mostly I popped it to say "Hi! Has anyone mentioned how abrasive you come off with even your more reasonable commentary? Because dear god, you manage to find ways to shit on things unnecessarily that doesn't help you address the problems in as helpful a way as you might like, and I feel like someone should point it out."

                Seriously, "father wolf blah blah blah"?

                This isn't about splat wars, I have absolutely no problem with werewolves being the big bananas of the lower splats and will keep playing the game and buy any supplement that comes out (when they decide to publish them anyway) even If I don't care about the lore (there is plenty about vampire that I find ridiculous rest assured), what I object is nerfing a splat in favour of another, a werewolf rolling 15 attack dices against an opponent who can't use his full defense because he is fighting a 3 meters tall killing machine? sure, this is kinda the werewolves whole shtick (although having werewolves losing the skill part of their defense against eachother is kinda stupid), what I object is purposefully nerfing one of the other splats core abilities in favour of another (hell they even pinpointed vampires in the manual when talking about predators jaws), this was basically akin to say that mages can stop a werewolf regeneration cuz magic blah blah blah, hence my father wolf comment but whatever.

                I have been in enough werewolf games to know exactly how combat works, short, bloody and with a satisfying crunch with the irraka striking the first (and hopefully last) blow and the rahu finishing the rest, at least if the pack has done its homework and don't end up fighting a rank 5 spirit with plenty of backup and without knowing about its bane. Unlike apocalypse you actually study your prey and stack all the advantages you can, striking it when it least expects it and when it can't defend itself, you find out where the prey lives so you can prepare the field, you find out what are its allies so you can isolate him, you find out about its enemies so you can ally with them, you find out what are its defences to better neautralize them, you find out what scares it so you can exploit it, you find out what it wants so you can bait it and after all of that you declare the hunt, you remove layer upon layer of the prey defences, you drive it out of its den and chase it until it drops and at that point the killing becomes trivial, this is why I love werewolf not the mythology but this, werewolves are not just monsters but highly skilled operators that surgically strike their targets from the shadows and vanish without leaving any trace, they are basically a furry seal team 6 and I love them for it.

                Regarding vampires I agree on everything you said and like I have wrote before, I don't have any problems with vampires being weaker than werewolves since combat is not part of what makes the game fun but downplaying their durability was not a good way to portray it and that is just my opinion.

                Regarding aggravated damage, I like to stick to what is written in the core books (which is also why I get pissed everytime I read one since, more often than not, I end up more confused than before) and the book specifically refers to mortals and werewolves, vampires are not mortals and since they took the time and space to specify that werewolves jaws deal lethal to them, I think they would have also pointed out if this would have worked on them too since vampires are, again, not mortals, like not even close. The part about removing pieces of vampires is moot because they can easily regenerate this kind of injuries, you can chop a vamp's arm off with an axe, its still going to do bashing damage and its still going to reattach it or regrow another one reflexively for one point of vitae.

                Regarding you getting aggravated by my commentary, thats on you, I've never insulted nor acted aggressively against anyone (who the fuck does that over a game anyway?) so while I may come off as an asshole (and I kinda am a little I admit), I would never purposefully attack anyone over their opinion nor will I change my tone when criticizing a piece of fictional literature.
                Last edited by Newb95; 01-09-2022, 07:25 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                  Regarding you getting aggravated by my commentary, thats on you,
                  It's sprinkling contentious language into ordinary posts, which is a pain to filter past and adds nothing to this conversation that you said you would stop clogging the Simple Questions thread with and then proceeded to immediately jump back into.

                  If you have a question, great, ask it, but nobody is asking for your capital-O Opinion about how stupid you think some element of the game is in this thread for checking how the lore and mechanics work.


                  Simple question: Does accessing a Haven through Carthian Pull also give you access to a dot of Safe Place, or are the temporary digs an exception to the requirement that a Haven be tied to a Safe Place? Similarly, does losing the temporary Haven at the end of the month count as a breaking point for characters whose Humanity is high enough for it to matter?


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                  • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post

                    Regarding you getting aggravated by my commentary, thats on you, I've never insulted nor acted aggressively against anyone (who the fuck does that over a game anyway?) so while I may come off as an asshole (and I kinda am a little I admit), I would never purposefully attack anyone over their opinion nor will I change my tone when criticizing a fictional piece of literature.
                    No, it's completely on you. You don't have to openly insult someone or be aggressive to anyone to still come off as rude as rude and condescending, particularly with unrelated asides that have no purpose asides from shitting on something, particularly something that people in reasonably have a good chance of enjoying.

                    That you admit to coming off as an asshole but staunchly state you'll do nothing about it does not help your case. I realize you're still relatively new around here, but the days where that's a reasonable defense for various faux pas, be they games understanding or social, eventually run out, and things like the above shit show of an opinion on Forsaken only devour that good will all the faster.

                    As for the rest, good will towards writing intention and good faith in questioning go a long way. Chronicles is not a game where context is blanked out, and and trying to bend the game in ways that don't adhere to the narrative employed will ultimately fail to work.

                    I might returned to get more into the details, but I've got a clock to beat.


                    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Feminine pronouns, please.

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                    • Please desist all arguments and move onto other topics. The next argument will get this thread shut down. This is the first and final warning.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Simple question: Does accessing a Haven through Carthian Pull also give you access to a dot of Safe Place, or are the temporary digs an exception to the requirement that a Haven be tied to a Safe Place? Similarly, does losing the temporary Haven at the end of the month count as a breaking point for characters whose Humanity is high enough for it to matter?
                        I'd say that the Haven dots would constitute an exception. The only thing the player is really benefiting from are the sunproofing and subtle, comfortable nuances of staying in the home of another Kindred. A Safe Place rating should still exist, but that would be at the discretion of the ST. Just because you're crashing on the couch doesn't mean the Haven's owner will batten down the hatches if someone comes looking for you.

                        Likewise, I'd say no to the Breaking Point. The Haven doesn't belong to the character, and their departure was an understood inevitability. They aren't able to personalize and memorialize their Requiems in that space, which are the sort of investments whose loss would cause the Breaking Point to begin with.

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                        • Whats it seem like if a hideous kindred Uses Majesty?


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                          • Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                            Whats it seem like if a hideous kindred Uses Majesty?
                            Majesty doesn't make you pretty it just improve your presence/charisma. There's plenty of example of "ugly" (for esthetic standards) people which are much more charismatic and "attractive" then pretty men. Think to politician, or VIP, they may be ugly and yet moving masses

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                            • Yet to a nosferatu who learns majesty it can be a relief.


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                              • It is indeed. He will still be ugly (although in 2ed Nosderatu are not ugly by default, they can also be beautiful and yet making humans feel awkard) but will be seen with "other eyes".

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