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How does Celerity influence a footchase. Vampire second eition

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  • How does Celerity influence a footchase. Vampire second eition

    If someone is in a foot chase, would celerity allow you to instantly catch as you can instantly reach a distance equal to your speed?

  • #2
    Sort of? Footchases tend to take place in urban environments, where you have to deal with things like pedestrian traffic, garbage cans / dumpsters, fences, turning corners, cover, ducking into doors, and more. Pure speed helps, but its less important than the ability to navigate the environment quickly. Now, in an open field with no obstructions or an open road, that'd be one thing, but its also an unrealistic expectation in most cases. Generally speaking, footchases work with an extended-contested roll between the persuer and evader. Each dice pool subtracts environmental penalties, and each character a target number that they need to reach to catch (or escape) the other character. Speed generally helps by increasing the TN your opponent needs to hit.

    Celerity, to be honest, is pretty crap when it comes to the Chase rules. Even using the Fleet of Foot and Parkour merits, sometimes even Resilience (adds to Stamina+Athletics rolls) tend to be more effective. And you need to spend 1 vitae per turn to keep any bonuses from it. The best use of Celerity, in truth, is to prevent a footchase from happening by cutting someone off before they can run away. "Disciplines are designed to make things happen…when one comes into play, a plan falls into place, a situation escalates. They’re also coercive. Most Disciplines represent power that a vampire wields to force someone to do what they want," (VtR p278). Beating someone in a footchase isn't coercive - that's a competition. Stopping them from running away in the first place? Now that is something vampires do very well.

    TL;DR - Celerity can cut someone off before they start a footchase, but once you're actually in the chase, you're FUBAR.

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    • #3
      I think we can go for something simpler. Having celerity and being willing to spend the vitae to use make the vampire more likely to have the edge in the chase and possibly lower the number of sucess required to win the chase.

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      • #4
        As written, celerity won't do much during a prolonged foot chase. However, I'd have to agree with the above, with the use of celerity you shouldn't ever be in a prolonged foot chase. By spending a point of vitae, you can choose to interrupt an action with one of yours, so just flying tackle the person before they get running.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Elderand View Post
          I think we can go for something simpler. Having celerity and being willing to spend the vitae to use make the vampire more likely to have the edge in the chase and possibly lower the number of sucess required to win the chase.
          Actually, if you go by the rules in the CofD book, it increases the number of successes the other player has to reach in order for them to win the competition, so this is part of the calculations. However, spending the vitae is required per-turn, meaning that the TN will fluxuate over the course of the chase, so that's difficult to calculate.

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          • #6
            Okay, rereading the rules, I'm not sure you can modify it with Celerity. As an extended action, you spend blood to increase your speed, but I'm not sure if a lot of STs would let you modify the target of an extended opposed role using a reflexive boost. You would get the +2 to their pool for being an untiring opponent though. If your ST would let it work, it'd add another +3 successes needed to their pool for a total of 10 successes needed to beat you. (5 Base + 2 Untiring +3 Being more than double their speed)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gullinbursti View Post
              As written, celerity won't do much during a prolonged foot chase. However, I'd have to agree with the above, with the use of celerity you shouldn't ever be in a prolonged foot chase. By spending a point of vitae, you can choose to interrupt an action with one of yours, so just flying tackle the person before they get running.
              Celerity doesn't grant multiple attacks or instant actions in a single turn.

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              • #8
                No, though it does allow you to take an action. It also specifically says that you can attack, dodge an attack etc. Basically, for an instant you do something so fast, no one can react. It also specifically calls out using this to interrupt someone's action. Just giving the rules a reread, I can't find anything that would limit you from moving and then smacking the guy about to flee. You can't hit a guy using celerity multiple times to get more attacks, but if someone is about to sprint away from you and they're higher in initiative, you can spend a blood after their intent to flee is known, then trip them, smack them, close the door etc.

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                • #9
                  Chase rules being something that came along after VtR2e, this is something I'd like to see revisited by one of the developers. I'd probably go with using the werewolf rule for Urhan form, using speed as a dicepool, if it would be Strength+Athletics, the turn celerity is used (Yes I know its obscene but it should be).

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                  • #10
                    From what David Hill said, the Chase rules were written with Werewolf in mind, even though Werewolf came out before the CofD core rules did. Give that little tidbit, I imagine that they also considered Vampire when designing them as well; its an assumption, perhaps, since I never saw it explicitly stated, but it seems to be something that makes sense to me - if there's one game in mind, I imagine others would be as well.

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                    • #11
                      I've got to echo MCN's first post. Celerity doesn't help with Chases, it circumvents them. Just like Dominate and Majesty circumvent Social Maneuvering and Auspex circumvents Investigations.


                      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                      • #12
                        Agreed on the circumvent thing. If using celerity to run, you appear to "teleport" so no one can follow you. If you are doing the chasing, then celerity probably lets you catch up. The only way i would use chase rules in this situation is ST is if the player invested heavily in those rules and I wanted to give them a chance to show off. I'd also use it if both vampires had celerity or there were some extreme distances involved.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          I've got to echo MCN's first post. Celerity doesn't help with Chases, it circumvents them. Just like Dominate and Majesty circumvent Social Maneuvering and Auspex circumvents Investigations.

                          Celerity can't always do that though, just look at the modifiers, its hard to circumvent a chase if they have a 2 turn head start and turn context is 30 seconds or more. You can't always pre-empt that or simply catch up with just speed when the stats change. Though Celerity can certainly jump the target number up quite a bit, chase turns are different from combat turns, how does that work? There is more to it than simply 'bypass'

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rani Neferet View Post
                            Celerity can't always do that though, just look at the modifiers, its hard to circumvent a chase if they have a 2 turn head start and turn context is 30 seconds or more. You can't always pre-empt that or simply catch up with just speed when the stats change. Though Celerity can certainly jump the target number up quite a bit, chase turns are different from combat turns, how does that work? There is more to it than simply 'bypass'
                            A vampire with base speed comparable to her prey can catch up from a 2-turn head start with Celerity 2 since it could triple her speed. Most of the time if a human is running away from vampire with Celerity, I'm not going to invoke chase rules, for the same reason you don't make a player roll to see if they can open an unlocked door. If there's no reasonable chance of failure, there's no need to roll. The only time the chase rules are actually going to come into play are in situations where the circumstances are such that just being faster isn't enough to ensure you'll win the chase - for example, if you're pursuing them through a crowd, or if the terrain otherwise makes it impractical to run at full speed. And, in such situations, it makes sense that Celerity wouldn't provide much of an advantage. You can use its speed enhancing effect to increase the opponent's target successes for a turn, and/or you can use its initiative jumping effects to seize the Edge. That's about all Celerity should do in a situation where the Chase rules are actually required to resolve the conflict.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                              A vampire with base speed comparable to her prey can catch up from a 2-turn head start with Celerity 2 since it could triple her speed. Most of the time if a human is running away from vampire with Celerity, I'm not going to invoke chase rules, for the same reason you don't make a player roll to see if they can open an unlocked door. If there's no reasonable chance of failure, there's no need to roll. The only time the chase rules are actually going to come into play are in situations where the circumstances are such that just being faster isn't enough to ensure you'll win the chase - for example, if you're pursuing them through a crowd, or if the terrain otherwise makes it impractical to run at full speed. And, in such situations, it makes sense that Celerity wouldn't provide much of an advantage. You can use its speed enhancing effect to increase the opponent's target successes for a turn, and/or you can use its initiative jumping effects to seize the Edge. That's about all Celerity should do in a situation where the Chase rules are actually required to resolve the conflict.
                              Chase turn != Combat turn. That makes a serious difference. A 2 turn lead is 20ish combat turns.

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