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How does Celerity influence a footchase. Vampire second eition

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rani Neferet View Post
    Chase turn != Combat turn. That makes a serious difference. A 2 turn lead is 20ish combat turns.
    The person has been running from the vampire for a full 2 minutes before she started chasing him? Yeah, Celerity's not gonna help. Vampires are ambush predators, not endurance predators.


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • #17
      Futhermore, the only time the word "turn" comes up with Celerity rules is that you can only activate a given Active power once a turn. The point where you multiply your Speed by Celerity+1? Makes no mention of it lasting an entire turn. Instead, its described as an almost teleport, moving too fast for the eye to follow without crossing intervals, used for surprise attacks or avoiding detection. Using Celerity over the period of a Chase is not how the power is intended to be used at all. If you have the vitae to do it, then you can effectively teleport in front of someone, ending any attempts at a chase.

      Now, I can see arguments that this implies combat turns, not 30 second turns for a Chase - I personally find it odd that a BP 1 vampire could only spend a single vitae in this situation when one could spend 10 vitae in the same time period in combat. But that is up to the ST to make that call.


      Also, if someone has a minute lead on you? That's not a chase anymore - we've moved into using tracking / investigation rules. I know it says that you can have a 2+ turn "lead" on someone in the Modifier's chart, but realistically, if someone is that far out of your sight, you have no way of knowing what turns they made, where they might have hidden, if there's a vehical involved. You kind of need someone in your sensory range if you're going to physically chase them down. "Turn" is kind of funky here, because it can also imply one or two turns of combat time. You fight, someone turns and dashes off. You finish off an opponent, then give chase type of situation.
      Last edited by MCN; 05-20-2016, 08:05 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MCN View Post
        Futhermore, the only time the word "turn" comes up with Celerity rules is that you can only activate a given Active power once a turn. The point where you multiply your Speed by Celerity+1? Makes no mention of it lasting an entire turn.
        Actually it does. Under duration.

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        • #19
          Point. I missed that the duration said that. Still, doesn't change that Celerity works almost more like a teleport - jarring and sudden bursts of movement - that doesn't make sense in terms of increasing your Speed for the duration of 30 seconds.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MCN View Post
            Also, if someone has a minute lead on you? That's not a chase anymore - we've moved into using tracking / investigation rules. I know it says that you can have a 2+ turn "lead" on someone in the Modifier's chart, but realistically, if someone is that far out of your sight, you have no way of knowing what turns they made, where they might have hidden, if there's a vehical involved. You kind of need someone in your sensory range if you're going to physically chase them down. "Turn" is kind of funky here, because it can also imply one or two turns of combat time. You fight, someone turns and dashes off. You finish off an opponent, then give chase type of situation.
            Actually its only +2 success difference for 2 turn lead. It doesn't void the chase rules.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Rani Neferet View Post
              Actually its only +2 success difference for 2 turn lead. It doesn't void the chase rules.
              Which is pretty weird if you think about how far someone can run in a minute.


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • #22
                I just said you could have a lead? I didn't measure how far. And that's really another problem with these rules. One or two turn lead? What about bonuses for someone starting half a block away? You see it in shows all the time - police protagonists walk out of a building, spot someone they want to talk about, the suspect turns and flees, chase ensues. That can happen in game as well.

                Only +2 to difficulty for two minutes of running away? Gods, I can run a quarter mile with that amount of time. I could duck into any number of stores, alleys, or jump into a car and drive off. It makes no sense here.

                What does make sense, however? The one/two/etc turn lead refers to combat turns, and is actually a mesurement of how much of a headstart someone gets. If you could reach someone in two turns of running, then they have a +2 bonus. And so on. I honestly think that using "turn" in the chase subsystem is a misnomer. If we look at the Social Maneuvering system, a Perfect Impression gives you one roll a turn. In context, that's three seconds, not thirty, and the general time needed to perform a single Instant action. Most of the game understands that a turn is three seconds; while you can require longer between most rolls in extended actions, we don't consider them turns.

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                • #23
                  Honestly, I don't care for the whole "1 turn = X seconds" thing anyway. In my opinion, a turn should be an abstract measurement of narrative time, just like scene, chapter, story, and chronicle. In some conflicts a turn might be 3 seconds, in some it might be 5 minutes, the important thing is that it's the way time is measured within scenes where characters' actions need to be resolved sequentially.


                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                  • #24
                    While I agree with the sentiment, I have to say that I don't think its a realistic expectation. There are times when authors treat "scenes" and "turns" as discrete units of time and not subjective phases. And, to be fair, there are times when the reverse is true - turns are refered to flexible amount of time and nothing you can specifically put down to time. So, we have to look at things and try to figure out the intention of the author and translate to how we want the game to work, and not the other way around.

                    Specifically in this case, however? I chose three seconds because its the standard for combat, and a realistic expectation for catching up to someone in a chase instead of a half-minute lead, which, by all rights, should either be uncatchable, or a far higher bonus that a mere +1.

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                    • #25
                      What are the new rules actually, and in what book ? I didn't see them in Godmachine Chronicles.

                      Otherwise, from what was written in WoD corebook, it's a contestes action and you gotta reach the pursuing person's speed of the escaping person's current successes. But speed also has other applications. It was specified that for every three points (I think) of speed that one character has more than the other one, you gain one die for your chase roll for that turn.

                      So if both have like speed 10 and they have stamina 3/athletics 2 so a pool of 5 dice, the vampire uses celerity for one turn. If they has one dot, get speed 20 and gain 3 dice for their roll. Pretty nice bonus if you ask me, and that's only the first level. If they have celerity 5, he get 60 speed, which gives them 16 extra dice, so 21 dice for this turn's roll.

                      That's assuming you consider a chase turn equal to a fight turn for the sake of power duration, but I'd say just do it because it's simpler. In a way, it's kind of balanced that way. If you think about it this is a foot chase where someone can potentially go six times faster in short bursts. Let's just assume that that burst is equal to a combat turn cause if it was the case for an entire chase round, the roll becomes kinda pointless.

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                      • #26
                        I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Celerity can work fine in the context of 'turns' per the chase rules. Instead of teleporting around in combat time, they spend the vitae over the course of half a minute or whatever in a trickle, allowing them to simply move more quickly. Arguably not RAW, but it's plenty reasonable.

                        For a more blatant house rule, I'd say activating Celerity, instead of adding to the target number of the opponent, effectively gives you bonus successes on your own roll equal to your rating, in addition to any dice benefits built into the system (my book isn't in front of me); this represents the advantage inhuman speed and maneuverability allows you, since Celerity doesn't force you to rely on your normal reaction time and whatnot. And that also covers speed fluctuating turn to turn if not constantly active



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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by S. Brechen View Post
                          What are the new rules actually, and in what book ? I didn't see them in Godmachine Chronicles.
                          Obviously the "Chronicles of Darkness" corebook. Though I'm not always against quoting rules, quoting the entirety of chase rule's here seems like a bit much. As a side note: I love the new chase system, makes them much more interesting.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by S. Brechen View Post
                            What are the new rules actually, and in what book ? I didn't see them in Godmachine Chronicles.
                            Chronilcles of Darkness Core book. Investigations, Chases, and Crafting Equipment are three new systems presented within that you won't find in GMC, as well as a handful of new merits.

                            New rules basically are 1) new way to calculate the target number of successes on the extended chase, 2) a way to determine what dice pools to use, since 2e has made an effort to focus on a breadth of skills rather than a handful, and 3) each "turn" of the chase takes 30 seconds of game time. Bonuses from things like starting distance, Speed, and the like take the form of increasing or decreasing the TN of successes.

                            Originally posted by falco1029 View Post
                            I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Celerity can work fine in the context of 'turns' per the chase rules. Instead of teleporting around in combat time, they spend the vitae over the course of half a minute or whatever in a trickle, allowing them to simply move more quickly. Arguably not RAW, but it's plenty reasonable.
                            Its reasonable if you want to force Chase rules, but it absolutely is a houserule. Vampires hunt more like cats, relying on ambushes and bursts of speed/strength, rather than a sustained hunt like a wolf.

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                            • #29
                              Oh, so they released a new core book (and pretty recently too). Well that's certainly good cause there were a few things in GMC that directly referenced the WoD corebook, and that was a bit dumb.

                              Ok, so the "chase" here is completely different from regular foot chase as presented in the WoD book. Honestly, the way they present it, it's a very wide interpretation of a chase (with a bit of luck and finding the good arguments, a character with very low physical stats and no athletics could very well win the chase, it's definitely interesting, but I don't know what to think of it just yet), and while it makes sense, they definitely didn't think of what Celerity could do. The good thing is that it allows not physical characters to pull of a chase against an athlete if the GM gives enough opportunities. The thing I'm less sure about is that it takes away a bit from the old chase rules where they could be pretty fast paced. This condenses the action where I could see a need for more details sometimes for drama's sake. Like the exemple where the two participants of the chase got through place filled with dogs. It's pretty much handled in one roll where you could build, if not a whole scene, a few moments of tension of being in a place like that.

                              Still, I guess it's interesting and I should try it when I have the occasion. I certainly don't mind it like I mind the "social maneuvering rules". There's something I'll never be using.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MCN View Post
                                Chronilcles of Darkness Core book. Investigations, Chases, and Crafting Equipment are three new systems presented within that you won't find in GMC, as well as a handful of new merits.

                                New rules basically are 1) new way to calculate the target number of successes on the extended chase, 2) a way to determine what dice pools to use, since 2e has made an effort to focus on a breadth of skills rather than a handful, and 3) each "turn" of the chase takes 30 seconds of game time. Bonuses from things like starting distance, Speed, and the like take the form of increasing or decreasing the TN of successes.

                                Its reasonable if you want to force Chase rules, but it absolutely is a houserule. Vampires hunt more like cats, relying on ambushes and bursts of speed/strength, rather than a sustained hunt like a wolf.
                                Ok but that doesn't mean they would do poorly at endurance running, especially with the whole "never get tired" thing. I would they have quite the advantage even without Celerity because if you've ever sprinted before in your life, you know how quickly you tire and slow down, but the Lick could sprint at full speed for miles if he wanted.
                                Last edited by Rathamus; 05-28-2016, 12:09 PM.

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