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[2E] Alternative to Mask & Dirge

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  • #31
    I do not agree with Dirge/Requiem part, as definition sounds much more noble than using of Beast in my mind. It's not performance, not dance, it's dark urges, Beasts whisperers in vampires ear, that he listen to, from time to time. Beast must be Dark Passenger of character, like from Dexter show.



    Just see on those examples of Beast:
    • Predator - You live to hunt and playing with mortals is your game.
    • Hungry - Blood is all that matters - need to have maximum Vitea all the time. Get's Willpower when refilling Vitea in same scene.
    • Monster - Monster exists to torment, frighten, and destroy. She loathes existence, and spreads that loathing wherever she goes.
    • Deviant - Deviant lives to flout norms and break traditional expectations. She isn’t concerned with rebellion; she’s concerned with crime, sin, and debauchery.
    • Puppeteer - Blood is powerful bond. By chaining others to you, you regain you sense of control.
    Dirge sounds like things that Louis de Pointe du Lac would have 'Melancholic' or even 'Emo' defined. In Beast variant it would be 'Death Risking' or even 'Predator' - as his most defined dark aspect that he secretly was enjoining being hunter with mortals ( just see him after transformation of Claudia in movie, even than for one century he was resisting it ).

    But whatever - maybe I just reinvented wheel with much more straight forward and evocative names for Anchors. If that is, game just solved one of greatest problems I had with 2E Requiem changes.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      I do not agree with Dirge/Requiem part, as definition sounds much more noble than using of Beast in my mind. It's not performance, not dance, it's dark urges, Beasts whisperers in vampires ear, that he listen to, from time to time. Beast must be Dark Passenger of character, like from Dexter show.
      You're missing my point. Dirge is dark urges, the reason it's presented as something elegant is because vampires are pretentious and deluded, and presenting their dark urges as a dance is exactly the sort of thing they do all the time.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Just see on those examples of Beast:
      • Predator - You live to hunt and playing with mortals is your game.
      • Hungry - Blood is all that matters - need to have maximum Vitea all the time. Get's Willpower when refilling Vitea in same scene.
      • Monster - Monster exists to torment, frighten, and destroy. She loathes existence, and spreads that loathing wherever she goes.
      • Deviant - Deviant lives to flout norms and break traditional expectations. She isn’t concerned with rebellion; she’s concerned with crime, sin, and debauchery.
      • Puppeteer - Blood is powerful bond. By chaining others to you, you regain you sense of control.
      Those all sound like Archetypes, which could easily be Masks or Dirges.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Dirge sounds like things that Louis de Pointe du Lac would have 'Melancholic' or even 'Emo' defined. In Beast variant it would be 'Death Risking' or even 'Predator' - as his most defined dark aspect that he secretly was enjoining being hunter with mortals ( just see him after transformation of Claudia in movie, even than for one century he was resisting it ).
      Melancholic is Louis' Mask. It's the persona he puts on to convince Lestat, Claudia, Armand, the interviewer, and most importantly himself, that he still has a semblance of humanity. Risking death would probably be the "All Willpower" mode of his Mask. His Dirge would probably be something like Predator, because as you observed, that is the dark desire he hides behind his mask.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      But whatever - maybe I just reinvented wheel with much more straight forward and evocative names for Anchors. If that is, game just solved one of greatest problems I had with 2E Requiem changes.
      More straightforward? maybe. More evocative? on the contrary, you've taken poetic names that tie into an ongoing metaphor that is so central to the game it's literally one of the listed themes and swapped them for names that are almost painfully on-the-nose.


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      • #33
        Topic is still valid for those that have other ideas for alternative Anchors.

        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
        More straightforward? maybe. More evocative? on the contrary, you've taken poetic names that tie into an ongoing metaphor that is so central to the game it's literally one of the listed themes and swapped them for names that are almost painfully on-the-nose.
        Maybe it's more simpler, but I like them as this way. Poetic is sometimes just too flowery, missing point for some men. If I still do use Archetypes as needed, my renaming only fulfilled points of 2E change in first place, not pushing me of the basic assumptions of the game. More kudos to me then, from translating what designers had in mind for use of common gamers, not understanding metaphor in first place.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-18-2016, 03:24 AM.


        My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
        MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
        WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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        • #34
          I could see a ordo dracul perhaps describe it a little different. Instead of man and beast.

          Perhaps Id and Ego.

          Your ID is the sum total of your wants.
          The Ego is who you try to be.

          Very similar to man vs beast, but not every action has to be related to primal instinct.

          A little Freudian but then again he was big into interpreting things in a very sexual nature and vampire can be that way as well. So maybe fitting.
          Last edited by overload; 11-19-2016, 12:43 PM.

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          • #35
            Why not say something more on the nose, if that's the direction you want? Human/Monster, Civil/Creature, Life/Unlife, Suit/Fang, Flesh/Blood.
            Interpretation of the original is valid, and personal connotations aside any of the above are equally valid. There is no right way to go through the rules, only your way. If you want to change something, change it, alter it, replace it, ignore it.

            The rules as written are
            1. Not gospel
            2. Open to interpretation
            3. Only extant in your world to the point that you allow them to be
            4. An incomplete toolset for you to construct a world with
            Further, it doesn't matter which rules you leave out, as long as you look to the consequences of omission. It doesn't matter which rules you change, as long as you're aware of what that means to the world at large. And it doesn't matter if someone disagrees, provided they aren't at your gaming table.

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            • #36
              I don't honestly see the difference between calling it Mask and Dirge and Man and Beast. They're exactly the same thing, it's just that the first is written in flowery, pretentious Kindred language.

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              • #37
                If we're renaming them, perhaps it would be thematic to come up with suitable names for characters of different Clans and Covenants?
                Daeva: Masquerade vs Requiem (Flowery, metaphorical)
                Gangrel: Man vs Beast (immediate and short)
                Mekhet: ? vs Shadow (Mystical, not obvious meanings)
                Nosferatu: Human vs Monster (like Gangrel, but focus on how inhuman the Nosferatu perceive themselves as)
                Ventrue: Mask vs Dirge (TBH, I still prefer Masquerade vs Requiem for them as well as the Daeva, but I always have issues differentiating Daeva and Ventrue themes for some reason.)

                Carthians: Man vs Tyrant? (They see humanity as worth imitating? not so happy with this one)
                Circle: Mortal vs Goddess (They disdain humanity, and so emphasize acting with their deeper darker passions)
                Sanctum: Humanity vs the Devil (Similar to the Circle, but for different reasons. The Mask is what allows them to perform their intentions a mongst their "flock" and charges)
                Invictus: Masquerade vs Requiem (Masquerade keepers, eloquent)
                Ordo: Ego vs Id (I really like this one, pseudo-scientific)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
                  If we're renaming them, perhaps it would be thematic to come up with suitable names for characters of different Clans and Covenants?
                  I'm not opposed to the Clan-specific idea, but I question having both Clan and Covenant. Does one supercede the other, in your view?

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                  • #39
                    Whichever one your character more strongly identifies with, I'd say. I personally wouldn't use it, just a fun little thought exercise I think. Or perhaps whichever one the chronicle as a whole emphasizes.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
                      Circle: Mortal vs Goddess (They disdain humanity, and so emphasize acting with their deeper darker passions)
                      I would go with Maiden vs. Crone. The Circle doesn't disdain humanity, they view both the woman and the beast as equal aspects of the vampire and don't resent either.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post

                        I would go with Maiden vs. Crone. The Circle doesn't disdain humanity, they view both the woman and the beast as equal aspects of the vampire and don't resent either.
                        Oooh, that's even better, I was struggling with that one. I personally find the Clan versions more... fitting, generally.

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