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Viking Werewolves and Mass Combat

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    What is wrong with that? The unit would either become needlessly aggressive (Atavism), break (Delusion), or become a target for spirits (Reception).
    And I think that's fine.
    Well, it's instant death to any Unit. It's like all the werewolves PCs would be in each Battle to just declare 'going Gauru, killing everybody, Battle ended'. In this situation no need for any Battle rules in the first place. When mortals have not any chance to leave confrontation with even starting Gauru, Battle Rules do not have any sense for using them. And all Uratha commanders just say to their mortal packmates 'stend back, I will kill everyone on my own.'


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    • #32
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

      Well, it's instant death to any Unit. It's like all the werewolves PCs would be in each Battle to just declare 'going Gauru, killing everybody, Battle ended'. In this situation no need for any Battle rules in the first place. When mortals have not any chance to leave confrontation with even starting Gauru, Battle Rules do not have any sense for using them. And all Uratha commanders just say to their mortal packmates 'stend back, I will kill everyone on my own.'
      So, making the enemy side into raging berserkers is an instant death? Making them more receptive to spirits is?
      Yes, making them break will be a victory for the werewolf side, but that is provided all enemy groups break and retreat.

      The Lunacy conditions aren't instant kill stuff, you know.

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      • #33
        Let's run some test scenario. Assume we have Viking defending Unit vs Viking attacking Uratha commander. Unit just use stats from Horde Brief Nightmare, Uratha commander have starting 2 dots in any Attributes and Skills needed, Primal Urge 1. So we have this situation then...

        Uratha is attacking Unit. He takes Gauru form. He now has Strength 5, Dexterity 3, Stamina 4 and Weaponry and Brawl Skills at 2 and do +2 Lethal damage from Tooth or Claws.

        In contrast, out Viking Unit would have: Best Dice Pool 7 ( probably Fighting or Swords & Axes, maybe Shield Defense ), Worst Dice Pool 1 and All Other Pools 3. It has Health of 9 and general Defense as 3. Interesting is this quote:

        Originally posted by CoD Rulebook, p.144
        For resisted actions, use All Other Pools value as resistance Attribute unless Best Dice Pool or Worst Dice Pool actions would be more relevant.
        So we should use 2*All Other Pools, as Lunacy roll is Resolve + Composure in normal situations.

        Now, to the proper fight:
        1. Uratha declares his Attack Battle Action. He assumes Gauru as Instant action and chargé on Vikings Unit. He uses his Claws with his Brawl 2 so he get’s Attack Dicepool 7. Unit is defending themselves – use Shield Defense of 7. Very equal in here. If Unit would use it normal Defense, it would be 7 vs 3 – much more in favor of Uratha. For ease of test, let’s assume Uratha get only 1 Success more than Unit. It would be then 3 Lethals for Unit, it is 1/3 of starting Health. ( Number of Damage done to Unit is also casualties ratio to starting numbers – if Unit had 12 men, it would mean that 4 men are dead because of werewolf. )
        2. Now we go to Lunacy phase. Base ‘Willpower’ dicepool of Unit is 6 ( twice All Other Pools ). From Gauru Form encounter they get -2 penalty. From Primal Urge, Uratha does only -0 penalty. From numbers, Unit get +3 bonus. From attacking them, Unit get +1 bonus. In the end, Unit rolls 8 dices on Lunacy – rather good dicepool, I must admit.


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        My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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        • #34
          The Lunacy check is not a resisted action. It should only be All Other Pools, not 2*All Other Pools.

          Edit: A resisted action is an action that has a dice pool like this: Attribute + Skill (+ Supernatural Power) - Resistance Attribute
          That's when you are supposed to replace Resistance Attribute with All Other Pools.
          Last edited by Tessie; 11-30-2016, 07:32 AM.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Okay, so in this take it would mean that any Gauru sighting in battle ends it instantly in mass Lunacy.
            You are still failing to grasp that the Unit is an abstraction. It's not "one soldier fails his roll to resist Lunacy, so the whole squadron falls to Lunacy." One soldier can't fail the roll because individual soldiers are not making rolls. It's "the Unit failed its roll to resist Lunacy, so some unspecified number of the soldiers fall to Lunacy, and the overall effect on their ability to operate as a team is significant enough to warrant putting a Lunacy Condition on the Unit." Conversely, if the Unit had succeeded the roll, its likely that an unspecified number of soldiers still fall to Lunacy, but the overall effect on their ability to operate as a team was not enough to warrant putting a Lunacy Condition on the Unit.

            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            If one soldier is needed to make mass histeria in Unit, the they base dicepool should be like 2, tops 3.
            The base dice pool is 3. We already know this because that's how the Nightmare rules work.

            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Then we add penalties from Form alone and this mean that each battle with werewolves ends in all humans slaughter.
            First of all, why are you adding penalties from Form and not bonuses from the size of the group? Second of all, even if they fail it's not going to be a slaughter. Lunacy Conditions aren't that bad.

            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Without even taking things like morale from fighting enemy ( penalties from Important Characters Down & Dirty ).
            Are you talking about Gauru form's Primal Fear ability here, or something from your custom mass combat rules? If it's the former, I wouldn't force Down and Dirty - a whole squadron of Viking warriors shouldn't be considered a lesser foe, even if individual soldiers are. If it's the latter... when your house rules cause the rules as written not to work as intended, the fault isn't with the rulesvas writren, in my opinion.

            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            We higher Lunacy dicepool to numbers of 4-6, or this system is without any sense.
            If it's that important to you, just make resisting Lunacy one of the things they're Best At.
            Last edited by Charlaquin; 11-30-2016, 02:36 PM.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              Let's run some test scenario. Assume we have Viking defending Unit vs Viking attacking Uratha commander. Unit just use stats from Horde Brief Nightmare, Uratha commander have starting 2 dots in any Attributes and Skills needed, Primal Urge 1. So we have this situation then...

              Uratha is attacking Unit. He takes Gauru form. He now has Strength 5, Dexterity 3, Stamina 4 and Weaponry and Brawl Skills at 2 and do +2 Lethal damage from Tooth or Claws.

              In contrast, out Viking Unit would have: Best Dice Pool 7 ( probably Fighting or Swords & Axes, maybe Shield Defense ), Worst Dice Pool 1 and All Other Pools 3. It has Health of 9 and general Defense as 3. Interesting is this quote:
              As Tessie said, a roll to resist Lunacy is not a resistance Attribute. It's rolled, not applied as a penalty to an attacker's pool, so we don't double All Other in this case.

              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              So we should use 2*All Other Pools, as Lunacy roll is Resolve + Composure in normal situations.

              Now, to the proper fight:
              1. Uratha declares his Attack Battle Action. He assumes Gauru as Instant action and chargé on Vikings Unit. He uses his Claws with his Brawl 2 so he get’s Attack Dicepool 7. Unit is defending themselves – use Shield Defense of 7. Very equal in here. If Unit would use it normal Defense, it would be 7 vs 3 – much more in favor of Uratha. For ease of test, let’s assume Uratha get only 1 Success more than Unit. It would be then 3 Lethals for Unit, it is 1/3 of starting Health. ( Number of Damage done to Unit is also casualties ratio to starting numbers – if Unit had 12 men, it would mean that 4 men are dead because of werewolf. )
              2. Now we go to Lunacy phase. Base ‘Willpower’ dicepool of Unit is 6 ( twice All Other Pools ). From Gauru Form encounter they get -2 penalty. From Primal Urge, Uratha does only -0 penalty. From numbers, Unit get +3 bonus. From attacking them, Unit get +1 bonus. In the end, Unit rolls 8 dices on Lunacy – rather good dicepool, I must admit.
              If we start with a base dice pool of 3, as per the horror rules, we get 3 from the Horde's All Orher dice pool, +4 for the size of the group (unless this Horse is made up of only 10 or fewer soldiers?), +1 for taking damage from the werewolf, -2 for Gauru form. That's a total of 6 dice. 9 if the Horde spends Willpower.


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              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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