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[2E] Lodges and Sacred Hunt

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  • [2E] Lodges and Sacred Hunt

    So I written some Apocalypse Tribes as 2E Lodges based on previews and some early read of Pack book. But more I read Pack, the more I have questions on format of Lodges, especially they relations to Sacred Hunt and Prey.
    Here are question on those:
    1. Do all 2E Lodges grant next Sacred Prey for characters? From Pack all of examples seems to be - Lodge of Garmir, Thousand Steel Teeth, Lodge of the Screaming Moon, Temple of Apollo and even Eaters of Dead. ALL of them have Sacred Prey, so it seems all Lodges should have Sacred Prey.
    2. If above is true – How abstract can be Lodges Sacred Prey? Is there need to be some kind entities? Some beings in correct environment? Beings with particular features? Can, for example, be made Lodge that hung songs and stories, as proposed by me Fianna? Or Lodge that looks for characteristics – like proposed by my Get of Fenris that looks for signs of weakness?
    3. How much abstract can the Hunt be interpreted? Do building things can be seen as Sacred Hunt, in some way? Do any Hunt must be ended with someone’s death? Like can I make Lodge that is after secrets and lore from spirits, not killing them all the time?


    MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
    WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
    WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

  • #2
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    [*]Do all 2E Lodges grant next Sacred Prey for characters? From Pack all of examples seems to be - Lodge of Garmir, Thousand Steel Teeth, Lodge of the Screaming Moon, Temple of Apollo and even Eaters of Dead. ALL of them have Sacred Prey, so it seems all Lodges should have Sacred Prey.
    No, some just hunt in different ways. 'The Thousand Steel Teeth choose those who would take to the road as their sacred prey, hunting humans and Claimed and Uratha alike upon steel steeds.' The Temple of Apollo will hunt anyone who has trespassed in their sacred temples.

    [*]If above is true – How abstract can be Lodges Sacred Prey? Is there need to be some kind entities? Some beings in correct environment? Beings with particular features? Can, for example, be made Lodge that hung songs and stories, as proposed by me Fianna? Or Lodge that looks for characteristics – like proposed by my Get of Fenris that looks for signs of weakness?
    You could hunt 'the weak,' but you'd need to know a general idea about who or what you were hunting. P140, 'The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names.'

    [*]How much abstract can the Hunt be interpreted? Do building things can be seen as Sacred Hunt, in some way? Do any Hunt must be ended with someone’s death? Like can I make Lodge that is after secrets and lore from spirits, not killing them all the time?[/LIST]
    No a hunt doesn't have to end with a death, it says so in the core book, 'a kill is not necessary,' on p310, and when performing the Sacred Hunt to get Gifts one doesn't kill the prey. One can hunt for a totem or a territory, a lost fetish, an ancestor spirit, or an ancient Firstborn, but the Sacred Hunt is sacred and not meant to be used for hunting for cigarettes when you're hungry for nicotine.
    Last edited by nofather; 12-01-2016, 12:29 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      No, some just hunt in different ways. 'The Thousand Steel Teeth choose those who would take to the road as their sacred prey, hunting humans and Claimed and Uratha alike upon steel steeds.'
      So some 'Sacred Prey' can be environment, yes? Like 'roads' in example of Thousand Steel Teeth. Possible then are 'urban' and 'desert' Sacred Prey?

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      The Temple of Apollo will hunt anyone who has trespassed in their sacred temples.
      'Those that trespass' are still somekind of entities.

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      You could hunt 'the weak,' but you'd need to know a general idea about who or what you were hunting. P140, 'The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names.'
      Direct examples - Can characters with Ergi be declared? Like my Get of Fenris states 'I hunt those that are Ergi now' and they would magically be highlighted for him in until Siskur-Dah is performed?

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      One can hunt for a totem or a territory, a lost fetish, an ancestor spirit, or an ancient Firstborn, but the Sacred Hunt is sacred and not meant to be used for hunting for cigarettes when you're hungry for nicotine.
      So, theoretically, if you think that tales are sacred, you can make Lodge hunting stories, yes?


      MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
      WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
      WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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      • #4
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        So some 'Sacred Prey' can be environment, yes? Like 'roads' in example of Thousand Steel Teeth. Possible then are 'urban' and 'desert' Sacred Prey?
        No. The environment is not the sacred prey. 'That claimed,' or 'that human,' or 'those shartha,' are the sacred prey. They're the sacred prey because of what they did in the environment. You would not hunt 'the city' unless you were part of some sort of city-destroying lodge. You would hunt your prey in the city.

        'Those that trespass' are still somekind of entities.
        Yes. John the vampire has entered the temple, we'll hunt him. Next week it might be the nosy human from child services.

        Direct examples - Can characters with Ergi be declared? Like my Get of Fenris states 'I hunt those that are Ergi now' and they would magically be highlighted for him in until Siskur-Dah is performed?
        I don't think so. You could just dislike people with Ergi, then start a sacred hunt for specific Ergi people when you knew of them. But Ergi isn't really a thing about the person, it's what someone's called them. And likely people have called others Ergi behind their back, or when no one else was around, which would probably end up targeting most people in the world.

        So, theoretically, if you think that tales are sacred, you can make Lodge hunting stories, yes?
        You'd want to narrow it down. Otherwise the first time you passed a bookstore without entering or didn't ask a person their life story you'd be giving up the hunt.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by nofather View Post
          No. The environment is not the sacred prey. 'That claimed,' or 'that human,' or 'those shartha,' are the sacred prey. They're the sacred prey because of what they did in the environment. You would not hunt 'the city' unless you were part of some sort of city-destroying lodge. You would hunt your prey in the city.
          Okay, I get it - Prey IN THE ENVIRONMENT can be Sacred to Lodge. So 'XXX in desert' or 'YYY in city'. Or like my Bonegnawers example - Lodges adherents get bonus to tracking Prey without urban problems.

          Originally posted by nofather View Post
          I don't think so. You could just dislike people with Ergi, then start a sacred hunt for specific Ergi people when you knew of them. But Ergi isn't really a thing about the person, it's what someone's called them. And likely people have called others Ergi behind their back, or when no one else was around, which would probably end up targeting most people in the world.
          Ergi can be social stigmata, so it's controversial example. What about physical marks - like, let's say, cripple? Can some Lodge be made hunting cripple people? ( I just use it as example for obvious physical problem of Prey. )

          Originally posted by nofather View Post
          You'd want to narrow it down. Otherwise the first time you passed a bookstore without entering or didn't ask a person their life story you'd be giving up the hunt.
          I was thinking like 'Tale of Baldur the Toothless slaying Maeltinet' - this kind of things as Sacred Hunt.


          MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
          WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
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          • #6
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Okay, I get it - Prey IN THE ENVIRONMENT can be Sacred to Lodge. So 'XXX in desert' or 'YYY in city'. Or like my Bonegnawers example - Lodges adherents get bonus to tracking Prey without urban problems.
            Yeah, though it's worth keeping in mind that the Temple of Apollo doesn't hunt people in the environment, but who have trespassed in a specific environment. So they could end up hunting things anywhere. And you have some lodges whose 'thing' is hunting via connections.

            Ergi can be social stigmata, so it's controversial example. What about physical marks - like, let's say, cripple? Can some Lodge be made hunting cripple people? ( I just use it as example for obvious physical problem of Prey. )
            I get you're just using it as an example, but that's not exactly a clear-cut one, what makes one a cripple? Blonde-haired people, people taller than six feet, shorter than four. You could do it, but it's the kind of thing that would probably have other werewolves thinking you're crazy.

            I was thinking like 'Tale of Baldur the Toothless slaying Maeltinet' - this kind of things as Sacred Hunt.
            Oh sure yeah. It wasn't specifically a Sacred Hunt, but presumably Max Roman did something similar when hunting down the ban for the Gurdilag, by hunting down where it came from, he was basically hunting down its story.
            Last edited by nofather; 12-01-2016, 02:08 PM.

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            • #7
              Remember that the Sacred Hunts of Lodges are a *refinement* of the Siskur-Dah, rather than the broader hunts of the tribes. When in doubt make a lodge's Hunt smaller rather than larger.


              Aims to write stuff you like.
              WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams
              CofD | Werewolf the Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide
              The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                Remember that the Sacred Hunts of Lodges are a *refinement* of the Siskur-Dah, rather than the broader hunts of the tribes. When in doubt make a lodge's Hunt smaller rather than larger.
                So I should strife to not grant second Sacred Prey to adherents?


                MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
                WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
                WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                  So I should strife to not grant second Sacred Prey to adherents?
                  No, but it depends what the additional prey is. Look at the sample lodges.

                  Lodge of Garm - Blood Talons hunt werewolves. The lodge hunts elder werewolves. The Siskur-Dah helps identify them (once werewolves are found), and better survive the encounter.

                  The Thousand Steel Teeth - no matter what the prey is, it can't shake the lodge by simply driving away. And while the prey stays in a vehicle, lodge members suffer less damage from vehiclular impact. (Note that it's while the *prey* is in a vehicle. You gain no advantage to running the prey down if he's a pedestrian.)

                  Lodge of the Screaming Moon - spend Essence to counter fear of the prey.

                  Temple of Apollo - detects trespassers to Apollo's sacred shrines.

                  Eaters of the Dead - empowered to drain power from the undead, and ultimately strike them down.

                  So in each case, the lodge's hunt is sharper, a more narrow focus than that of a tribe. None of them have such broad purview as 'urban'.

                  If you wanted to grant an additional prey, go ahead. But it should be something more specialized than what a tribe goes for. And because it's a lodge, with smaller, more exclusive membership, it should be more difficult or rarer than a tribal prey.
                  Last edited by Bunyip; 12-02-2016, 04:48 AM.


                  Aims to write stuff you like.
                  WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams
                  CofD | Werewolf the Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide
                  The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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                  • #10
                    So maybe as I have interest of developers, I would ask if those works as proper 2E Lodges Sacred Prey’s focus then ( or maybe they are to narrow or too broad? ). ( All are roughly based on Apocalypse Tribes ).

                    Bone Gnawers – Tracking Prey in urban centers.
                    Children of Gaia – Sensing corruption of Wounds and extreme Harmony werewolves.
                    Fianna – Tracking stories and tales ( Fae in individual cases as Living Stories ).
                    Get of Fenris – Sensing weak ( or having Ergi Condition from Dark Eras ).
                    Glass Walkers – Sensing those that are danger for Protectorate.


                    MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
                    WtF 2E - My Lodges and System Hacks Hubs
                    WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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                    • #11
                      Chiming in with whay Bunyip said - with Sacred Prey broad like that, wyrd, the Apocalypse tribes you've been converting look like, well, tribes and not lodges.

                      Which probably isn't that far from what you wanted, considering you were translating entire tribes anyway.

                      I haven't looked at your conversion thread yet, but my take on the Sacred Prey is something like:
                      • Silver Fangs: Heroes who have fallen. (morally, that is)
                      • Shadow Lords: Leaders who are incompetent.
                      • Bone Gnawers: Those who abuse the downtrodden.
                      • Red Talons: Prey who hunt back its predators.
                      • Glass Walkers: Those who hamper technology.
                      • Children of Gaia: Werewolves with broken Harmony.
                      • Get of Fenris: Descendents of the gods.
                      • Black Furies: Those who abuse women.
                      • Fianna: The Fair Folk.
                      • Silent Striders: Vampires.
                      • Stargazers: Dream creatures.
                      • Wendigo: Cannibals, both literal and metaphorical.
                      • Uktena: Magath.
                      Hope that helps!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                        So maybe as I have interest of developers, I would ask if those works as proper 2E Lodges Sacred Prey’s focus then ( or maybe they are to narrow or too broad? ). ( All are roughly based on Apocalypse Tribes ).

                        Bone Gnawers – Tracking Prey in urban centers.
                        Children of Gaia – Sensing corruption of Wounds and extreme Harmony werewolves.
                        Fianna – Tracking stories and tales ( Fae in individual cases as Living Stories ).
                        Get of Fenris – Sensing weak ( or having Ergi Condition from Dark Eras ).
                        Glass Walkers – Sensing those that are danger for Protectorate.
                        Not a developer, just a writer.

                        That said, I agree with 21C Hermit. While it's difficult to know what your intent is from simple sentences, they appear too broad.

                        On the surface of what you've suggested:

                        Bone Gnawers - a subset of urban, maybe, but not 'urban'. Too far reaching. Plus 'urban' really isn't anything specifically thematic to the Gnawers. Better sacred prey might be those who have actively harmed the homeless in the last week/month.

                        Children of Gaia - this one has some merit. Not so much the wounds, but werewolves of extreme Harmony. Knowing the CoG, this would be a non-violent style hunt, like you were referring to earlier. Can sense if a werewolf's Harmony is 9 or greater, or 2 or less. If the CoG helps engineer situations to bring the werewolf closer to Harmony 5, the prey gains some kind of bonus to the roll. Can only have one prey/project at a time, obviously.

                        Fianna - far too broad and vague as presented. With substantial clarification and refinement, it could be the workable seed of an idea.

                        Get of Fenris - Maybe. I seem to have misplaced my Dark Eras copy at the moment, and can't recall the Ergi Condition. Sensing prey with a specific condition could be workable.

                        Glass Walkers - way too broad. What qualifies as a danger to the protectorate?


                        Aims to write stuff you like.
                        WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams
                        CofD | Werewolf the Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide
                        The Trinity Continuum | Æon

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