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  • #31
    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    First off. We Swedes aren't "anemic", we are private, yes. But not bloodless.
    I was marking this 'bloodless' thing from movies like Let Me In from 2010. And long Scandinavian nights would be great for vampires. And yes, it's more 'cinematic take' on reality, but I think it works with North being heavily Kindred infested.

    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    This is an important thing to remember when making games set in ye olden days; The extreme majority of people didn't live in cities, or even towns, but rather on farms.

    ( And all local gold on the towns and cities. )

    So what I meant to say is: don't look at Old Uppsala like any kind of urban environment, but rather as a hub of farming villages.
    (And...)

    I think this is paradoxically both too large, and too small a number. Uppland (the area/province/whatever where Uppsala is located) is an area with relatively good soil for farming, so the population density would be rather high for Sweden. And it has access to lots of waterways, so there will be easy transport, and plenty of fishing out by the coast, so in the general area the population would be higher. But Old Uppsala itself? I doubt if more than a hundred lived there.
    So you think it would more like 1000 human in region, but only like 100 in Old Uppsala proper?

    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    Remember that it's averaged out over a large populace. With Werewolves, who generally are created in family lineages, it wouldn't be impossible to see dozens in one place, but then have none at all in a huge area.
    Good point here. Maybe it would be good place to work with fan proposed Wolf-Blooded Linages then, where Tribes are 'inherited' in most of families.


    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    Don't feel constrained by numbers. Add whatever amount of creatures the chronicle needs.
    Well, I know that - but some numbers would be too high with taking in account things like Lunacy or 'Herd Must Not Know'. Some 'realistic' rations is better tha werewolves armies taken 'just because'. Even higher numbers than 'average' will show it's consequaces on local setting.

    Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
    Oh, and on that note. The warrior class up here were never the nobles, but simply farmers. It's again probably a result of the harsh climate, we had to get really rather organized until a proper feudal system could be implemented, and by that point (which will be a few hundred years after when your game is set), tradition had already created violently independent farmers, rather than a warrior elite. This had rather interesting political ramifications later on, with the farmers being a powerful group in society...
    With higher status of farmers and commoners - maybe Uratha society has higher numbers in Iron Masters, living closer to human populations? Ironicly, Storm Lords number can be lower than in other communities on continent from the same time period?


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    • #32
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      I was marking this 'bloodless' thing from movies like Let Me In from 2010. And long Scandinavian nights would be great for vampires. And yes, it's more 'cinematic take' on reality, but I think it works with North being heavily Kindred infested.
      Ah, you meant it like that!
      Well, yeah. And the mythical (inland) draug is a good fit for a gangrel. Shapeshifting undead with command over animals, and is practically indestructible? Yeah. That sounds like Protean, Animalism, and Resilence to me.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      So you think it would more like 1000 human in region, but only like 100 in Old Uppsala proper?
      As I said, I'm no expert in early middle ages agrarian demographics, but I did what anyone would do in this situation: I googled!
      I found this site, which talks about fantasy setting realism. I assume it's based on historical fact. But even if it isn't, it's a decent number to base things on.

      It talks about how the minimum for a well developed middle ages kingdom would be 30 people per square mile, and that this is in land with bad condition. Considering that Sweden was FAR from well developed, but that it was about as nice as one could get in Sweden back in those days, in the area we are talking about, it seems about fair.

      And a day's walk is, according to Wikipedia, 20 miles. So thus, the radius around Uppsala that is relevant, is one days walk back and forth. 10 miles. That gives us about 300 square miles to work with. And thus we should have about 9000 people living in that area, if that site is correct.

      So there you are!

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Good point here. Maybe it would be good place to work with fan proposed Wolf-Blooded Linages then, where Tribes are 'inherited' in most of families.
      Also take into consideration that adoption was a big deal. You wouldn't have to actually be born into a family to be considered a part of it.
      If I were to run a Werewolf game, I'd set up a farmstead, where everyone was a member of the pack. The werewolves run things, wolfbloods are in the know, and humans handle the chores. Reasonable wolfbloods get adopted into the family, to fit in.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Well, I know that - but some numbers would be too high with taking in account things like Lunacy or 'Herd Must Not Know'. Some 'realistic' rations is better tha werewolves armies taken 'just because'. Even higher numbers than 'average' will show it's consequaces on local setting.
      Yeah, I know. But what I mean is, werewolves are discrete entities. You don't get 0.3 werewolves in a village.

      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      With higher status of farmers and commoners - maybe Uratha society has higher numbers in Iron Masters, living closer to human populations? Ironicly, Storm Lords number can be lower than in other communities on continent from the same time period?
      Why should there?
      Stoic acceptance of hardship is a virtue, and you have to consider the harsh climate up here. It used to kill people. Storm Lords are those who face that head on. They would be respected, honoured.

      That relative elevation of peasants would rather mean that Storm Lords wouldn't be connected with nobility any more than it would the common man.

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      • #33
        Sorry for double-posting here, but I came to a realization: There will be a relatively higher ratio of werewolves to humans in harsh conditions, such as Scandinavia. Winter won't be NEARLY as big a problem for them as for regular humans.
        They will have fur, which will aid fantastically in humanity's long-standing endeavour not to freeze to death, and the enhanced senses of a wolf will make hunting for game a relative breeze.

        The best thing about this latter is that the Werewolf can help the entire community with it. Bringing in a moose in the end of February would be a godsend to an entire farm.

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        • #34
          But does not Wolfs being kind a demonic from whole Fenris and Ragnarok thing? With Hati Hróðvitnisson and a like myths - humans should not be afraid of man-wolves in this culture? On the other hand wolves are companions of Odin, so probably Norseman had ambivalet connection to the Uratha at large, wigh both myths of 'good' and 'bad' wolves. I just wonder what would be about family secretly driven by Uratha in those times - are they more admired by their wolf patrons or shuned by sellong to 'demons' in day to day communities?


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          • #35
            Also next question - Did Uppsala being governed by jarl or High Priest in that time? Thing of All Swedes seems to imply that some jard would call it, right?


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            • #36
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              But does not Wolfs being kind a demonic from whole Fenris and Ragnarok thing? With Hati Hróðvitnisson and a like myths - humans should not be afraid of man-wolves in this culture? On the other hand wolves are companions of Odin, so probably Norseman had ambivalet connection to the Uratha at large, wigh both myths of 'good' and 'bad' wolves. I just wonder what would be about family secretly driven by Uratha in those times - are they more admired by their wolf patrons or shuned by sellong to 'demons' in day to day communities?
              Dangerous, certainly. Not perhaps something you wanted to spend much time with, definitely. But demonic? No.
              Inherently evil beings wasn't a thing. Enemies, yes. Inherently evil? No.
              You see, before the Christianity brought the idea of absolute morality to Scandinavia, the concept of "good" and "evil" didn't exist. "Us" vs "Them"? Sure. That's universal. "Allies" vs "Enemies"? Sure! It's a necessity in a warrior culture. "Dangerous" vs "Harmless"? Sure! "Good" vs "Evil"? No. Not really.

              That said. Wolves was a bad thing. They killed livestock. They followed armies and fed on the dead and dying. Their howls are eerie. They are the spirit of the winter woods. People feared and respected wolves, and with probably no small amount of hate baked in. But they weren't evil.

              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              Also next question - Did Uppsala being governed by jarl or High Priest in that time? Thing of All Swedes seems to imply that some jard would call it, right?
              The thing was more of a legal body than a ruling body. There was lots of overlap in old societies (such as the Isrealites being ruled by judges for a while, for instance), but it's not completely the same.
              Jarls were rulers, yes. But the thing was about the law. The old Norse loved their law.

              But yeah. The place was relatively organised. There will probably be a Jarl somewhere around here.


              Also, the mention of kings: Sweden didn't have a king until about year 1000.
              When set the game, it'll mostly just be chieftains of various levels of power.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
                Dangerous, certainly. Not perhaps something you wanted to spend much time with, definitely. But demonic? No.
                Inherently evil beings wasn't a thing. Enemies, yes. Inherently evil? No.
                You see, before the Christianity brought the idea of absolute morality to Scandinavia, the concept of "good" and "evil" didn't exist. "Us" vs "Them"? Sure. That's universal. "Allies" vs "Enemies"? Sure! It's a necessity in a warrior culture. "Dangerous" vs "Harmless"? Sure! "Good" vs "Evil"? No. Not really.

                That said. Wolves was a bad thing. They killed livestock. They followed armies and fed on the dead and dying. Their howls are eerie. They are the spirit of the winter woods. People feared and respected wolves, and with probably no small amount of hate baked in. But they weren't evil.
                So what would be typical reactions of normal commoners on family members of Uratha ( i.e. 'kin of the Wolf' )? Herd Must Not Know, but 'wolf-blood' is probably common phenomena to be accused of ( even if they do not know it's almost 3 meters high wolf-man beasts in disguise ).


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                  So what would be typical reactions of normal commoners on family members of Uratha ( i.e. 'kin of the Wolf' )? Herd Must Not Know, but 'wolf-blood' is probably common phenomena to be accused of ( even if they do not know it's almost 3 meters high wolf-man beasts in disguise ).
                  I don't understand the question.

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                  • #39
                    So I will rephrase it - We have one family lead by Uratha ( i.e. Pack structure in this Era ) that's members sometimes go to market or temple in Uppsala. There are probably rumors of 'wolf-blood' in them. How will react Uppsala ( or other ) communities rumored to be marked by the Wolf? Would they afraid of them? Would they want to slay 'wolf-bloods'? Would they venerate as 'blessed'?
                    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-24-2017, 03:16 AM.


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      So I will rephrase it - We have one family lead by Uratha ( i.e. Pack structure in this Era ) that's members sometimes go to market or temple in Uppsala. There are probably rumors of 'wolf-blood' in them. How will react Uppsala ( or other ) communities rumored to be marked by the Wolf? Would they afraid of them? Would they want to slay 'wolf-bloods'? Would they venerate as 'blessed'?
                      It would be bad. I'm just not sure how bad.
                      Wolves were bad news. Hounds of the All-Father, and all that.

                      I know that later on, in Swedish folklore, foreigners (mostly Sami and Russians) were accused of either being werewolves, or turning people into werewolves via curses.)


                      All in all, however, I'd recommend hiding it.

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                      • #41
                        Planning raiding and vikings in chronicle, I read more Information on subjects and I do not sure I will stick with Uppsala idea. Here are thoughts and questions:
                        1. Do Sweds in Viking Era went on England or Ireland in early phase? Wikipedia article seems to indicate they set sails on East, to Byzantium or Russia, from even start of this. I wanted to stick to England and nearby as those lands are still 'wild', compared to Byzantium and Caliphates.
                        2. Did population of Uppsala partake in raids? They were 70 kilometers in land, long past shoreline. They were also religious center rather than normal settlement - being much more rich than rest of region just from sacrifices to gods. On the other hand, they had near network of fiords up to later Stockholm, so I can see they could move their smaller ships there and in to the sea.
                        3. Oldest Sweden town would be Birka, only 30 kilometers from Stockholm, on island, near coastline - there is even historical christian conversion mission pointed at year 831, so it's probably earliest Christianity center in whole Viking kingdoms.
                        4. From the Danes, town of Hedeby can be said to be oldest historically known. Their members probably partake in Lindisfarne. It's even described in Wolf and Raven Dark Era chapter! Only problem with it - it's in modern Germany, not Scandinavia. ( What's even more weird - Google Maps point to it as being in modern Denmark! ) BUT we have very near of it town of Ribe, in proper Denmark, from the same era as Hedeby. On the other hand, in whole Southern Denmark region we have only 1,2 mln people, and only 8000 in Ribe now - sounds a bit low to run with proper Protectorate in modern times.
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-11-2017, 01:03 AM.


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