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Dark Eras - The Fall of Fenris

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Gullinbursti View Post

    Okay, I know that was just an offhand example, but it does make me wonder. Could an Obrimos who has never conceived of radiation actually create or control it? I mean, I guess the "symbols" or radiation would exist, but would the local mages of the time be able to understand it enough to replicate and use it?
    I also say yes, and leave the radiation-mage puzzled why the hell this particular Forces Pattern he’s controlling looks like a Death Pattern, being inundated with symbols of destructive transformation, and as an extension of that why the hell it screws up nearby Life Patterns so much in ways similar to but different from Patterns of poison and disease, despite being a pure Forces Pattern.


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    • #62
      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

      I also say yes, and leave the radiation-mage puzzled why the hell this particular Forces Pattern he’s controlling looks like a Death Pattern, being inundated with symbols of destructive transformation, and as an extension of that why the hell it screws up nearby Life Patterns so much in ways similar to but different from Patterns of poison and disease, despite being a pure Forces Pattern.
      Obsession time! Excellent description.


      Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

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      • #63
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

        Okay, but most of Norse population simply did not know what was on South, correct? Because I do not hear any sources stating that Normans were in, for example, Rome in 4th century AD. I do not even think their are sources pointing for them to be in nearest Teutoburg Forest of Germania even. I just do not think that there will be proper Order culture - NOT Darshana cults, they spring all around us as Mage canon - but proper structure of Diamond IF there will not one or two mage 'going over horizon'. Orders are something more than one or two lone walkers in the new terrain.
        Most? That's a bit much to say. Some of course never left the farm, but they would hear the tales and it seems quite clear from the historical and archaelogical evidence that the Scandinavian Germanic peoples traveled widely and returned--often bearing the objects they traded for, plundered, or were given.

        Let's be clear as well: Norse were a people between 800 and 1300 AD--a specific group of Germanics who were one of the last to spread themselves in excited settling throughout Europe and parts of Asia. Earlier groups of Germanics were already present in these areas, often, and were either conquered or some assimilation took place. For example the Normans did not exist until a group of Norse negotiated land from the (originally Frankish, a Germanic tribe that invaded Gaul in the 5th century) king of France, and settled/defended the coast we now call Normandy.

        I'm not going to dig into JSTOR for scholarly articles. Here is a quick Google search: Scandinavia before the Viking Age – Migrations. The point is that the people of this age were much more connected than we've been led to believe, and people moved around much more than the image of peasants and serfs (which were a later social innovations accompanying feudalism) implies. Now did they move around relatively less than during the height of Rome? Hard to say--but probably: Rome was a vast engine for enterprise and the movement of goods and riches, which draws adventurers and traders like iron to a lodestone.

        Looping back to the main topic, it seems clear to me that unless the influence of Ymir and the chaining of Fenrir (in the uttermost north, I presume) was very regional, it would have been noticed and could be investigated by Mages in particular, as well as other Uratha/Pure. What of that? At the very least, once the raids started you'd have folks asking "why is this happening?"

        --Khanwulf

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
          Most? That's a bit much to say. Some of course never left the farm, but they would hear the tales and it seems quite clear from the historical and archaelogical evidence that the Scandinavian Germanic peoples traveled widely and returned--often bearing the objects they traded for, plundered, or were given.
          Okay, reading ( and quoting ) article you linked I can see that some southern groups of Norse would make longer contact with Rome and related kingdoms even in 6th century. So true revolution of Viking Age was that they founded route to Europe by sea, not on long haul of walk on your feet from North.

          'According to Jordanes (485-552) there was during the 6th century AD a federation of several Norwegian tribes under one leader, Rodulf (Hrolfr), and the tribal names mentioned are easily recognizable from (still existing) Norwegian regional names, people from the ancient tribal lands of Ranariki (“Ran´s Realm” – Østfold in Norway and Bohuslän in Sweden), Grenland, Agder, Telemark, Rogaland, Hordaland, Háleygjaland and Sami people (Granii, Augandzi, Eunixi, Taetel, Rugii, Aprochi). Apparently these warriors were “taller and wilder than the Germans” and “fought with beastly ferocity”. Rodulf traveled all the way to Ravenna in Italy and was well received by the Gothic king Theoderic. Modern archaeologists are less and less surprised by such tales, since the southern and western coast of Norway had been in contact with southern European culture and aristocratic families for a long time already. The Scandinavians who ventured out also often returned. The death of Attila in 453 resulted in the freedom of several tribes who had been subject to the Huns for centuries already. The Rugii tribe, for example, had traveled all the way from Rogaland and south-west Norway (Avaldsnes high seat) and made a little realm for themselves in “Rugiland” close to Vienna since the year 408 AD. Here they converted to Christianity, but to the heretic branch of Arianism. Together with the Herulii from Skåne in Sweden, most of them actually returned to their Scandinavian homelands after trouble with the Romans. The sources show that even after centuries abroad, the ties to the original homeland tribes were strong and thriving.'
          Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
          Let's be clear as well: Norse were a people between 800 and 1300 AD--a specific group of Germanics who were one of the last to spread themselves in excited settling throughout Europe and parts of Asia.
          Nitpicking, but Norse existed long before Viking Age in year 800 AD - they were in Scandinavia at least from last great Ice Age ( circa 12 000 BCE ). Rest of Germanic people are rooting directly from Norse forefathers that left Scandinavia from circa 800 BCE till 600 BCE, with good climate. So, in reality, Norse from 6th century AD were joining Europe to reclaim what they forefathers wanted to grasp in the first place.

          Wikipedia on Germanic people:
          'Climatic change between 850 BCE to 760 BCE in Scandinavia and "a later and more rapid one around 650 BCE might have triggered migrations to the coast of Eastern Germany and further toward the Vistula.
          The cultural phase of the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age in Europe (c. 1200–600 BCE in temperate continental areas), known in contemporary terms as the Hallstatt culture expanded from the south into this area and brought the early Germanic peoples under the influence of early Celtic (or pre Celtic) culture between 1200 BCE to 600 BCE, whereupon they began extracting bog iron from the available ore in peat bogs.'
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-22-2018, 12:56 PM.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            Nitpicking, but Norse existed long before Viking Age in year 800 AD - they were in Scandinavia at least from last great Ice Age ( circa 12 000 BCE ). Rest of Germanic people are rooting directly from Norse forefathers that left Scandinavia from circa 800 BCE till 600 BCE, with good climate. So, in reality, Norse from 6th century AD were joining Europe to reclaim what they forefathers wanted to grasp in the first place.
            Norse is just a grab-all for the tribes that lived in the North during the early middle ages.
            The actual tribes were Danes, Gutes, Geats, Swedes and Norwegians. And probably another bunch of smaller ones. The Frisians might be considered for this, and there is discussion whether or not the Jutes are a separate tribe, or they are either Danes or Gutes.

            The Norse themselves called themselves, collectively something that can be translated as "Northmen", and a modern term is used all throughout the North even today; Nordbo. Which means "North-living", that is, someone who lives in the North.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Seidmadr View Post
              The Norse themselves called themselves, collectively something that can be translated as "Northmen", and a modern term is used all throughout the North even today; Nordbo. Which means "North-living", that is, someone who lives in the North.
              Great, I needed this name for my Viking game, had problem with Norse calling themselves in what future be modern Russia. And yes, before even by called 'Rus' by the local Sami people living there. 'Nordbo' it would be then.


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              • #67
                Nordbo is the modern term used. As mentioned before, there are actually a multitude of groups that get variously referred to as Norse or Viking in the modern era.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                  Great, I needed this name for my Viking game, had problem with Norse calling themselves in what future be modern Russia. And yes, before even by called 'Rus' by the local Sami people living there. 'Nordbo' it would be then.
                  The problem with the word Rus, is that is a name for sailor. Same base as to row. The people of the eastern archipelago of Sweden used this to differentiate themselves from the people who lived inland, and took that term to apply to themselves.
                  The reason that is Rus-Land, Russia, is because the Rus settled there.

                  In Finnish, Sweden is called Ruotsi today, because it was the Rus who first came into contact with the Finnish tribes. Oh, and that archipelago is still today called Roslagen (compared with Danelagen, the Dane Law of England).

                  Names are complicated.

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                  • #69
                    I think for gameplay experience proto-Finnish people calling Vikings players as 'Rusi' would be enough - so calling future kingdom Rus (Ruś in Polish ) will be natural. We do not run history course, it's just Werewolf RPG in historic setting.


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                    • #70
                      Acrozatarim - Mr. Chris sir, are you perhaps intending to finish fleshing this out and release on the Storyteller's Vault or somesuch? I'm still quite interested in understanding what caused the Joten's hatred of Fenrir, back in the day (pre-Fall even) but don't want to steal thunder by picking at questions if you have a project in the works.

                      Care to inform?

                      --Khanwulf

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                      • #71
                        With the advent of the Storyteller's Vault, it's on my list of Things To Do, but obviously if you want to explore ideas for use in your games then I'm not going to stop you!


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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
                          With the advent of the Storyteller's Vault, it's on my list of Things To Do, but obviously if you want to explore ideas for use in your games then I'm not going to stop you!

                          Well, no... I mean you have more important things to do--such as drinking tea--rather than pop down my chimney shouting "'Allo 'allo here, that's not how Fenris Falls! And that NPC--total bollock! Bad cricket all around! No GM biscuit for you, sir!"

                          Ehem. That said, I sketch-plot out far in advance (years), and if I know something is eventually coming--as you've indicated may, it helps. So thanks!

                          [Current plot points include back-and-forth setting jumps from the 6200BC Storegga Slide and concurrent drowning of the Doggerland (with, ehem, shining Valusia), to the creation of Hela, to the viking raids. Just don't know how it ties together, yet.]

                          --Khanwulf

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