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  • Question about Spirit rules

    Hello everyone.

    I am reading the spirit rules from the Forsaken core in 2nd edition and got some parts i dont understand.

    First i dont quite understand how you kill a spirit. So spirits that get all their lethal/aggravated corpus track get discorporated and appear near a resonant condition in hibernation unless they also loose all their essence.

    However on page 186 says that physical attacks on manifest spirits (meaning in twilight right?) or in the hisil deal only bashing. So unless you (a werewolf) outrank the spirit or uses its banes the only way to fill that track is by overflowing its corpus track with bashing until it also becomes lethal?

    On page 186 it says only spirits can be attack other spirits in twilight, does that mean a manifest spirit in invulnerable to werewolf attacks unless it outranks it or uses it banes? But page 185 on banes says that banes only cause lethal damage on spirits on twilight that arent manifested. Doesn't a spirit has to be manifested to BE in twilight? Because it also says manifested spirit touching the bane eat aggravated damage.

    So how hibernation works? it says that the spirit goes into twilight and can act and they can be destroyed there. But as i said above the rules on page 186 says only spirits can attack spirits on twilight so to effectively kill a spirit on twilight another spirit should A) Know about the hibernating spirit. B) Go into twilight and attack it. So that mean a werewolf cant kill a spirit permanently ever?

    On page 184 on "Spirit and Reaching" sidebar it says spirit on a locus that matches its resonance heals twice as fast however i cant find how fast they normally heal.

    About influences, how do they works. Says you got 3 in influences "dog" that means i can only do either:
    1. Strengthen a dog "1 minute per success" (influence effect 1, duration 0)
    2. Strengthen a dog "10 minute per success" (influence effect 1, duration 1)
    3. Strengthen a dog "1 Hour per success" (influence effect 1, duration 2) and pay 1 additional essence
    4. Manipulate a dog "1 minute per success" (influence effect 2, duration 0)
    5. Manipulate a dog "10 minute per success" (influence effect 2, duration 1)
    6. Control a dog "1 minute per success" (Influence effect 3, duration 0)
    So that means a rank 5 spirit cant permanently create a example of its influence?

    About Claimed, it says claimed gain influences of their spirit but loose the numina but can develop Dread powers. It doesnt say however how much dread power they gain.

    And finally the books seem to indicate that whenever it refers to a spirit materialize it truth it means a spirit is in twilight so it cant be seen by normal humans?

    Thanks for any answer.

  • #2
    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    However on page 186 says that physical attacks on manifest spirits (meaning in twilight right?) or in the hisil deal only bashing. So unless you (a werewolf) outrank the spirit or uses its banes the only way to fill that track is by overflowing its corpus track with bashing until it also becomes lethal?
    Generally, yes. I'm not super clear if the whole predator's jaws things is supposed to do lethal to Spirits by default, but I don't think so.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    On page 186 it says only spirits can be attack other spirits in twilight, does that mean a manifest spirit in invulnerable to werewolf attacks unless it outranks it or uses it banes?
    Yes.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    But page 185 on banes says that banes only cause lethal damage on spirits on twilight that arent manifested. Doesn't a spirit has to be manifested to BE in twilight?
    Twilight Form is technically a manifestation, yes. This is a poor choice of words. If a bane hits a spirit in Twilight it does lethal.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    Because it also says manifested spirit touching the bane eat aggravated damage.
    That should be Materialized. Or Claimed. The rest of the Manifestations leave the entity in Twilight, I believe.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    So that mean a werewolf cant kill a spirit permanently ever?
    No. Drain it of Essence first. This is a requirement to kill one whether the spirit is in Twilight or the Hisil, it doesn't actually matter which.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    On page 184 on "Spirit and Reaching" sidebar it says spirit on a locus that matches its resonance heals twice as fast however i cant find how fast they normally heal.
    If they heal naturally I think it'd be at the rate other beings do. 1B/15Min 1L/2Days 1A/Week

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    About influences, how do they works. Says you got 3 in influences "dog" that means i can only do either:
    1. Strengthen a dog "1 minute per success" (influence effect 1, duration 0)
    2. Strengthen a dog "10 minute per success" (influence effect 1, duration 1)
    3. Strengthen a dog "1 Hour per success" (influence effect 1, duration 2) and pay 1 additional essence
    4. Manipulate a dog "1 minute per success" (influence effect 2, duration 0)
    5. Manipulate a dog "10 minute per success" (influence effect 2, duration 1)
    6. Control a dog "1 minute per success" (Influence effect 3, duration 0)
    So that means a rank 5 spirit cant permanently create a example of its influence?
    I can't really touch on this, I'm not great with the Influence system, but I think you have this right.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    About Claimed, it says claimed gain influences of their spirit but loose the numina but can develop Dread powers. It doesnt say however how much dread power they gain.
    Because that's at ST discretion.

    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
    And finally the books seem to indicate that whenever it refers to a spirit materialize it truth it means a spirit is in twilight so it cant be seen by normal humans?
    Materialized spirits are visible and physical, not in Twilight,

    Comment


    • #3
      inodiv's got it. If you want to really kill a spirit, you have to drain it of Essence first, like by using their bane or a magical power or just tiring it out. It's worth keeping in mind there are other things a werewolf can do to a spirit, such as bind it in place or stick it in a fetish.

      As for Influences, they're more storyteller fiat, because there's basically billions of different kinds of Influences. But we've had a few threads on them that should help out, like this and this and this and this.

      And yes, they heal like normal people. 'Spirits record and heal from wounds the same way as human characters, but in addition lose one point of Essence for every aggravated wound they suffer.' Though they can spend Essence to heal, too.
      Last edited by nofather; 02-04-2017, 12:45 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
        Hello everyone.
        On page 186 it says only spirits can be attack other spirits in twilight, does that mean a manifest spirit in invulnerable to werewolf attacks unless it outranks it or uses it banes?
        Yes.
        Sorry this confuses me because it seems spirits are kind of invincible then. They just have to stay invisible on the twilight, and even if they get detected by a werewolf and said werewolf can see in twilight (which i think is a specific gift?) by the time they get their bane and declare a hunt rite the spirit is gone. I though it was more "see/suspect spirit, declare hunt, jump on the nearest locci into twilight and hunt it down.

        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        Twilight Form is technically a manifestation, yes. This is a poor choice of words. If a bane hits a spirit in Twilight it does lethal.
        Even if the spirit is in hibernation? The spirit isnt using a manifestation but it is in twilight.


        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        No. Drain it of Essence first. This is a requirement to kill one whether the spirit is in Twilight or the Hisil, it doesn't actually matter which.
        Ok but how? I mean unless you outrank him werewolf claws only deal Bashing (even if he outrank the spirit, if it is on twilight then its only lethal to apparently) so one would need to hit overflow with enough successes in 1 roll as to fill their lethal and pass enough aggravated point to make them loose their essence. Otherwise they go into hibernation in twilight were they can only be attacked by other spirits no werewolves.

        I though it was a matter of getting the spirit into hibernation through loss of corpus and then finish the job in twilight but apparently i is not?

        Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
        If they heal naturally I think it'd be at the rate other beings do. 1B/15Min 1L/2Days 1A/Week
        Thanks


        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        As for Influences, they're more storyteller fiat, because there's basically billions of different kinds of Influences. But we've had a few threads on them that should help out, like this and this and this and this.
        Yup i read them but none of them answer my particular question. I get what Influences do or at least i got a headcannon of what they can do but what i dont quite get (my english is rusty) is whether with influences say influence 3 i get 3 dots to use between effect and duration. Or i get 3 dots to spend on effects and 3 dots to spend on duration?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
          Sorry this confuses me because it seems spirits are kind of invincible then. They just have to stay invisible on the twilight, and even if they get detected by a werewolf and said werewolf can see in twilight (which i think is a specific gift?) by the time they get their bane and declare a hunt rite the spirit is gone. I though it was more "see/suspect spirit, declare hunt, jump on the nearest locci into twilight and hunt it down.
          It's a natural ability. If a spirit is in Twilight, and it's not actively hiding through some other means, a werewolf can see it. You don't need to have the spirit within sight to call a Siskur-Dah, or really need to even call a Siskur-Dah to fight a spirit. Werewolves have totems, spirit allies and other things that allow them to hurt spirits in Twilight, but for the most part a spirit just hanging around in Twilight isn't doing anything that warrants a hunt. In order to do more, it would need to invest more.

          Even if the spirit is in hibernation? The spirit isnt using a manifestation but it is in twilight.
          They don't hibernate in Twilight. At least not for long. P184, 'When spirits enter hibernation in the physical world, they slowly move back across the Gauntlet into the Shadow, crossing over in the local Gauntlet’s dice penalty in hours.'

          Ok but how? I mean unless you outrank him werewolf claws only deal Bashing (even if he outrank the spirit, if it is on twilight then its only lethal to apparently) so one would need to hit overflow with enough successes in 1 roll as to fill their lethal and pass enough aggravated point to make them loose their essence. Otherwise they go into hibernation in twilight were they can only be attacked by other spirits no werewolves.
          As noted, spirits are not invulnerable to harm in Twilight. Worse comes to worse, for whatever reason the spirit is just standing in Twilight and being an annoyance, werewolves can use Twilight Purge and knock them out of it.

          I though it was a matter of getting the spirit into hibernation through loss of corpus and then finish the job in twilight but apparently i is not?
          Twilight isn't a place, it's an active state of ephemera in the real world and spirits don't naturally dwell in it. Existing in the gurihal, the real world, would drain Essence. Also p184, 'Spirits in the material world but outside of a suitable Condition bleed one point of Essence per hour.' A spirit just hanging around in Twilight would be draining unless they had a corresponding Condition or an active Fetter. And werewolves can deal with Conditions and Fetters. Also worth keeping in mind that they can find a spirit's bane and use that.

          Yup i read them but none of them answer my particular question. I get what Influences do or at least i got a headcannon of what they can do but what i dont quite get (my english is rusty) is whether with influences say influence 3 i get 3 dots to use between effect and duration. Or i get 3 dots to spend on effects and 3 dots to spend on duration?
          It's between them. Permanency requires great power, though you can make things last a long time just by spending Essence with your Successes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
            So that means a rank 5 spirit cant permanently create a example of its influence?
            Trust me, this is a good thing. If Rank 5 spirits could trivially perma-create examples of their influence, the world would be buried in stuff popping out of no-where.


            - Chris Allen
            Freelance Writer, The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually, the fifth Influence dot has a special rule that allows it to permanently create one example instead of mass creating several temporary examples.


              Bloodline: The Stygians

              Comment


              • #8
                Hah, that teaches me for not rereading the Influence rules before posting


                - Chris Allen
                Freelance Writer, The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for all the clarifications i think i got it, except this one

                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  They don't hibernate in Twilight. At least not for long. P184, 'When spirits enter hibernation in the physical world, they slowly move back across the Gauntlet into the Shadow, crossing over in the local Gauntlet’s dice penalty in hours.'
                  Because on
                  Originally posted by Forsaken P186 View Post
                  Spirits that lose all Corpus from lethal or aggravated wounds explode into bursts of ephemera stylized to their natures. For example, a forest spirit dies in a hail of rapidly vanishing pine needles. The spirit isn’t actually dead, though, merely returned to dormancy unless it has also run out of Essence. If it has even a single Essence point remaining, it reforms in a safe place (a Resonant location, usually), hibernating.
                  So this means a spirit that fills it Corpus track explodes into a burst of ephemera but then either instantaneously moves to a resonant location in the Hisil (P186) or it stays hibernating in twilight (maybe as a Spirit corpse), vulnerable to attacks, slowly while it moves to the shadows with the local gauntlet penalty in hours (P184)?

                  As for banes do it got them right?
                  • If the bane is in the material world and the spirit is the Hisil nothing happens.
                  • If both bane and spirit are in the Hisil then the banes causes aggravated damage.
                  • If the bane is in the material world and the Spirit is in twilight then the banes causes lethal damage.
                  • If bane is in the material world and the spirit is fettered then the bane causes lethal to the spirit.
                  • If the bane is in the material world and the spirit is either possessing, a claimed or just used the "materialize" manifestation then it causes aggravated.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    So this means a spirit that fills it Corpus track explodes into a burst of ephemera but then either instantaneously moves to a resonant location in the Hisil (P186) or it stays hibernating in twilight (maybe as a Spirit corpse), vulnerable to attacks, slowly while it moves to the shadows with the local gauntlet penalty in hours (P184)?
                    Upon death, it reforms in a safe place, hibernating. It doesn't hibernate, allowing you to attack it, then teleport to a safe place, it's the other way around.

                    As for banes do it got them right?
                    • If the bane is in the material world and the spirit is the Hisil nothing happens.
                    • If both bane and spirit are in the Hisil then the banes causes aggravated damage.
                    • If the bane is in the material world and the Spirit is in twilight then the banes causes lethal damage.
                    • If bane is in the material world and the spirit is fettered then the bane causes lethal to the spirit.
                    • If the bane is in the material world and the spirit is either possessing, a claimed or just used the "materialize" manifestation then it causes aggravated.
                    Yes.
                    Yes.
                    Yes, though you could conceivably have a bane weapon that's enhanced to act as if it's in Twilight, whereupon it would inflict Aggravated.
                    Sort of. That's if the bane is touching the thing the spirit is Fettered to. Otherwise a Fettered spirit in Twilight acts as the rule above.
                    Yes, except with Possess. With Possess the spirit is in Twilight, but 'superimposed' over the subject of Possession, so it follows the rules above for a spirit in Twilight.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post

                      Trust me, this is a good thing. If Rank 5 spirits could trivially perma-create examples of their influence, the world would be buried in stuff popping out of no-where.
                      It was my understanding rank 5 spirits are Rare? Like, 10 per country or so?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Way, way more common than that.

                        Though you're free to make them as rare as you want, the setting has them pretty common. At least one for every town that isn't dead or dying, and multiples for every major city. Events that tainted the area, like Gettysburg, monuments or particularly noteworthy geographical features like big lakes or rivers. In London the spirit of the Tube, for instance. Ancient gods that are no longer worshiped or servitors of current gods.

                        First edition focused more on low-to-mid power, so we didn't get many named and written up.
                        Last edited by nofather; 02-07-2017, 11:22 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Rank 5 spirits appear to be rare because most of them are either sleeping, or unable to cross over into the physical world. I imagine most of them chilling out in the Deep Shadows of their own making.

                          EDIT: Well, actually that's close to Rank 6+ spirits. But still.


                          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nofather View Post

                            Upon death, it reforms in a safe place, hibernating. It doesn't hibernate, allowing you to attack it, then teleport to a safe place, it's the other way around.



                            Yes.
                            Yes.
                            Yes, though you could conceivably have a bane weapon that's enhanced to act as if it's in Twilight, whereupon it would inflict Aggravated.
                            Sort of. That's if the bane is touching the thing the spirit is Fettered to. Otherwise a Fettered spirit in Twilight acts as the rule above.
                            Yes, except with Possess. With Possess the spirit is in Twilight, but 'superimposed' over the subject of Possession, so it follows the rules above for a spirit in Twilight.
                            Thanks!

                            Originally posted by nofather View Post

                            As for Influences, they're more storyteller fiat, because there's basically billions of different kinds of Influences. But we've had a few threads on them that should help out, like this and this and this and this.
                            I have another question about influences. I couldnt find how much of a bonus strenghten influence gives beyond for the specific case of health (+rank in health). How strenghten works for things like defense or attributes?

                            +rank in attributes or defense? Or allocating successes on the roll? The second one would be weird as it would be the only influence that allocates successes to effect when normally are use to duration.
                            Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 02-08-2017, 09:15 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                              It was my understanding rank 5 spirits are Rare? Like, 10 per country or so?
                              I think they should be more as rank 6-7 entities creates them too as royal avatars.

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