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    • Originally posted by nofather View Post

      We're not quite sure what causes shartha, but one of the theories for their existence is that Father Wolf didn't manage to kill them, which is why they broke apart on their own into the hosts. Presumably this is what leads to some people thinking werewolves are hosts, with them effectively being or containing pieces of Father Wolf's heart. In this case it's likely not the Firstborn that ate his heart, but the Uratha.
      So. We could surmise that Father Wolf didn't actually kill-kill other Pangaeans, by consuming their hearts and destroying their ability to reform--he just chased them around and ate the non-essential parts when he caught them because that's what predators do. Oh. And in doing so (selecting targets) he chased off spirits that transgressed into the material world? I may be confusing the role assumed by the Uratha afterward, with Wolf....

      Originally posted by nofather View Post
      That seems to be what the Uratha are all about. While Father Wolf is legended to have the entirety of Pangaea as his territory, the Uratha are more assuredly a global thing, appearing wherever humans are even well before the days of the Vinca settlements.
      Sure: the cosmology of the Uratha is pretty tight and you can stop there with some satisfaction. Wolf hunts, and begets the Firstborn who hunt with him and with each other, and they beget the Secondborn and the Uratha and everyone hunts everywhere and the spirits are annoyed because they rain on the essence parade that should be occurring. No other predatory animals are necessary (except maybe sea-dwelling ones) and it's OK to ignore ursines, felines and raptors because even though they are apex creatures in their domains we're talking supernatural spirit-flesh hybrids, so all other creatures can be assigned spirit analogs but not shapeshifting blends/invested Pangaeans.

      Werewolves are sufficient for the cosmology. Full stop. (They're also necessary, because Father Wolf folded up the Border Marches as his last [Space!/Spirit!] act, and that's important.)

      The only reason to have other Pangaeans, aside from "Father Wolf the uber-spirit of the hunt" is to a) give him a challenge in a setting (Sundered World) in which he's alive, and b) give the Wise something to poach as a sterling example of mage hubris at work.

      Since Wolf occupies all of the cosmological space for predators, if we care to theorize his peers of the time we can either suggest conceptual Pangaeans or prey entities. Or, Wolf can shoulder aside a tad and coexist with someone else who eats creatures--as occurs in our material ecologies. Personally it seems more interesting for him to share the space, even as we acknowledge his importance to the Border Marches.

      --Khanwulf

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      • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

        So. We could surmise that Father Wolf didn't actually kill-kill other Pangaeans, by consuming their hearts and destroying their ability to reform--he just chased them around and ate the non-essential parts when he caught them because that's what predators do. Oh. And in doing so (selecting targets) he chased off spirits that transgressed into the material world? I may be confusing the role assumed by the Uratha afterward, with Wolf....
        But if that's the case- than why did the pangaeans self destroyed their own hearts?


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        • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
          But if that's the case- than why did the pangaeans self destroyed their own hearts?
          But only in the case of Bull and Bird (for the Vinca, that is), and because the People represented their interests in civilization. They wished for the Wise to shepherd the People well, and gave them the means to easily contact them. "Each of the original omphalos stones is a fragment of the Bull or the Bird’s heart. Most stand twice the height of a man..."

          The indication is that the full hearts are both larger in size and, by inference with the Watchtower analogs, may grow over time--or shrink.

          Regardless, it seems as though gifting a chuck of heart didn't slow Bull and Bird down too much... though IIRC eventually the greedy Wise hunted them down and took what was left.

          In some respects this whole heart-business reflects the story of the golden goose, only in this case the goose gets ripped open and a prize found, albeit once. If the Wise had been clever enough to meet their Pangaean counterparts with something that interested them, they could have negotiated the pieces they needed--but they were too impatient to do so, and in response drove a wedge between humanity and their gods.

          --Khanwulf

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          • I really enjoyed the tidbit describing Pangaeans as ‘animal-headed’—-indicating they can, at whim, become very much like the depictions of Egyptian deities.

            ...speaking of which, since the Border Marches covered the entire planet, what would the Pangaeans of the area that would eventually become Irem, and, later on Egypt, have been up to?

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            • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
              So. We could surmise that Father Wolf didn't actually kill-kill other Pangaeans, by consuming their hearts and destroying their ability to reform--he just chased them around and ate the non-essential parts when he caught them because that's what predators do. Oh. And in doing so (selecting targets) he chased off spirits that transgressed into the material world? I may be confusing the role assumed by the Uratha afterward, with Wolf....
              He could have been a predator that let worthy prey resurrect. I was more suggesting that these other Pangaeans were called out by name books ago and were really powerful (or just made a nuisance of themselves when Father Wolf weakened).

              Sure: the cosmology of the Uratha is pretty tight and you can stop there with some satisfaction. Wolf hunts, and begets the Firstborn who hunt with him and with each other, and they beget the Secondborn and the Uratha and everyone hunts everywhere and the spirits are annoyed because they rain on the essence parade that should be occurring. No other predatory animals are necessary (except maybe sea-dwelling ones) and it's OK to ignore ursines, felines and raptors because even though they are apex creatures in their domains we're talking supernatural spirit-flesh hybrids, so all other creatures can be assigned spirit analogs but not shapeshifting blends/invested Pangaeans.
              The Firstborn didn't beget the Uratha. They've been tied with Father Wolf and Luna since the very beginning. The Firstborn would later become tribal totems..

              Werewolves are sufficient for the cosmology. Full stop. (They're also necessary, because Father Wolf folded up the Border Marches as his last [Space!/Spirit!] act, and that's important.)
              We do have some other were-creatures (the Baal-Hadad, for instance). I just wouldn't go so far as to say every Pangaean has Pangaean-people. It's a possibility, but a very slim one. And mostly irrelevant, as if they did there's no evidence of them even in Pangaean times, as they're long extinct.

              The only reason to have other Pangaeans, aside from "Father Wolf the uber-spirit of the hunt" is to a) give him a challenge in a setting (Sundered World) in which he's alive, and b) give the Wise something to poach as a sterling example of mage hubris at work.
              It allows for the creation of hosts in the modern age, though those can also be linked to idigam.

              Since Wolf occupies all of the cosmological space for predators, if we care to theorize his peers of the time we can either suggest conceptual Pangaeans or prey entities. Or, Wolf can shoulder aside a tad and coexist with someone else who eats creatures--as occurs in our material ecologies. Personally it seems more interesting for him to share the space, even as we acknowledge his importance to the Border Marches.
              That's why I suggested Spinner Hag (Spider), Plague King (Rat), Carrion Prince and Corpse Eater (Crows) and the others.

              Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
              I really enjoyed the tidbit describing Pangaeans as ‘animal-headed’—-indicating they can, at whim, become very much like the depictions of Egyptian deities.

              ...speaking of which, since the Border Marches covered the entire planet, what would the Pangaeans of the area that would eventually become Irem, and, later on Egypt, have been up to?
              I'm pretty sure that section was actually referring to the Gods of Irem, who may not have been Pangaeans. It's in a sidebar dedicated to talking about other gamelines.

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              • Would the Shan’iatu have been the Lower Depths equivalent of Pangaeans, then?

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                • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

                  But only in the case of Bull and Bird (for the Vinca, that is), and because the People represented their interests in civilization. They wished for the Wise to shepherd the People well, and gave them the means to easily contact them. "Each of the original omphalos stones is a fragment of the Bull or the Bird’s heart. Most stand twice the height of a man..."

                  The indication is that the full hearts are both larger in size and, by inference with the Watchtower analogs, may grow over time--or shrink.

                  Regardless, it seems as though gifting a chuck of heart didn't slow Bull and Bird down too much... though IIRC eventually the greedy Wise hunted them down and took what was left.

                  In some respects this whole heart-business reflects the story of the golden goose, only in this case the goose gets ripped open and a prize found, albeit once. If the Wise had been clever enough to meet their Pangaean counterparts with something that interested them, they could have negotiated the pieces they needed--but they were too impatient to do so, and in response drove a wedge between humanity and their gods.

                  --Khanwulf
                  Actually, I talked about how Spider and Rat turned into hosts to avoid death.


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                  • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                    Actually, I talked about how Spider and Rat turned into hosts to avoid death.
                    Either it's a lie, or they did some mystical mumbo-jumbo that split their soul-stones into smaller pieces, or imbued them into servant creatures. This might be why Ariadne has generated an omphalos stone inside her, from collecting tiny pieces in the form of soul shards from so many other azlu.

                    Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
                    Would the Shan’iatu have been the Lower Depths equivalent of Pangaeans, then?
                    I don't know if that would be a useful comparison, Lower Depths are a wide range of things. It's possible Azar was a Pangaean, but I expect that would put the Mummy fandom in an uproar. I'm just guessing but I figure they see Azar and the Shan'iatu as 'its own thing.' Which is entirely fair, there's a lot of stuff in the Chronicles of Darkness and most of it doesn't seem related.
                    Last edited by nofather; 05-08-2018, 12:03 PM.

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                    • I always just saw Azar as a VERY powerful Shan’iatu, myself. He was MUCH wiser than his siblings, and so he got tasked with tutoring the other Shan’iatu.

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                      • And to clarify, I myself do not hold to the idea Shan’iatu were Pangaeans. I was merely floating forward an idea.

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                        • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                          Actually, I talked about how Spider and Rat turned into hosts to avoid death.
                          At another point in the DE, Father Wolf is described as "shattering the souls" in his jaws of some Pangaens who transgressed. That implies shattering their heart-stones, which implies little shards, which could immediately lead to Shartha. After all if Wolf gets to wipe out the Border Marches as his death-act, then why can't lesser prey break themselves? Rhetorical question--the answer is the Azlu and Beshilu, among others.

                          Correction received: Firstborn not linked to Uratha. Wolf+wolfspirit = Firstborn. Wolf+Luna (maybe) = Uratha. Or not. Depending on desired legend.

                          nofather I'm glad we agree that there's space for other Pangaeans of predatory sorts. I'd also be alarmed if every Pangaean had their were-creature counterpart, if simply because that's an unnecessarily reductive explanation for a rare shapeshifter in your story. How many people need detailed backstories and lore to explain the weird guy who turns into an orca? (For example. Orcas are cool, y0.)

                          The Darkness is a very accepting and tolerant place.

                          --Khanwulf

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                          • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post

                            At another point in the DE, Father Wolf is described as "shattering the souls" in his jaws of some Pangaens who transgressed. That implies shattering their heart-stones, which implies little shards, which could immediately lead to Shartha. After all if Wolf gets to wipe out the Border Marches as his death-act, then why can't lesser prey break themselves? Rhetorical question--the answer is the Azlu and Beshilu, among others.
                            yeah, but if Wolf never planned on destroying those pangaeans, only kill them and allow them to reform, why would they destroy themselves? The quote itself suggest that Father Wolf did planned on destroying Spider, Rat and the rest, and their shattering is either the result, or a means for them to escape an even more permanent death (for example, perhaps as a God of the Hunt, one of his unique powers actually allow him to destroy any pangaean he shatters, or something like that).

                            As for secondary predator pangaeans, I suggest Jaguar- in Skinchangers he is detailed as a parallel to Father Wolf, close to him even if not equal. Besides, the Balam Colop had to come from somewhere. In my head canon he, like Bull, has turned Infernal- even though the process, reasons and result are quit different.


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                            • I'd be sorely disappointed if Shark was not a badass Pangean predator.


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                              • Or Whale being flat-out huge beyond belief, absurd in its sheer bulk.

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