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  • Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
    I think that Deer, my hypothetical "Greatest Prey" would have Death as their Arcana. The Influences of Pangaeans are for what they are while the Arcana are what they mean.

    Reflection, Bright and Empty, has the Arcana of Prime and, to a lesser extent, Forces. Reflection is perception, and perception is Truth, hence Prime, whereas Forces impacts light. Its Influences are, quite directly, Reflections, but also Water, because water is the primary reflective surface of the Neolithic era.

    Harvest, Watchful and Ravenous, has the Arcanum of Matter. Matter is about the manipulation and categorization of resources, which is very much Harvest's jam. Their Influences are Hunger and Foraging, because Harvest is about the cycle of reaping resources from the earth. Harvest's particular unique powers also deal with foresight and finding things, because that is the point of horticulture and husbanding resources, whether as humans or as other animals.

    Fox, Vermillion and Wise, has the Arcanum of Mind. Fox is about insight and understanding, yes, but Fox is primarily about cunning. They are a fox, and the epitome of small, cunning predators. The wisdom of Fox is pretty much a side effect of everything else about them. Fox is wise because fox is cunning, and curious; all traits necessary to the survival of small predators.

    Following that train of thought, Deer is, ultimately, about the end of the Hunt. The Horned King has his reign, he is virile and powerful and majestic for his season, brooks no challengers, defeats all enemies, evades every hunter, until the time comes and a worthy predator tracks him down. The Horned King is god-as-sacrifice, and its greatest power lies in its death, and in its seasonal return from death.
    These are very good observations. I might take notes from this with how I work out the Pangaean version of Aharnuz and revisit my Sundered World writeup for the Deep.

    What about Turtle? I made his Arcana primarily Life and Death, with a bit of Fate.


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    • Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
      Following that train of thought, Deer is, ultimately, about the end of the Hunt. The Horned King has his reign, he is virile and powerful and majestic for his season, brooks no challengers, defeats all enemies, evades every hunter, until the time comes and a worthy predator tracks him down. The Horned King is god-as-sacrifice, and its greatest power lies in its death, and in its seasonal return from death.
      Yeah, that's what came to my mind when suggesting Life and Death for Deer. The cycle of life, death and life out of death.


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      • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
        Yeah, that's what came to my mind when suggesting Life and Death for Deer. The cycle of life, death and life out of death.
        So, assuming he'd be Rank 8 like Wolf, would Deer have four dots each in Life and Death? Also, I gave Turtle a power based on that Optional Rule from Optional Mysteries which allowed him to cast above the limits of his Arcana, so maybe Deer could have that as well?

        And maybe you could reskin the Immortal Dread Power from the CofD rulebook. I know Pangaeans can come back to life if their hearts are left undisturbed, but maybe Deer stands out somehow in this aspect?
        Last edited by Deionscribe; 05-07-2018, 03:19 AM.


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        • Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post

          So, assuming he'd be Rank 8 like Wolf, would Deer have four dots each in Life and Death? Also, I gave Turtle a power based on that Optional Rule from Optional Mysteries which allowed him to cast above the limits of his Arcana, so maybe Deer could have that as well?

          And maybe you could reskin the Immortal Dread Power from the CofD rulebook. I know Pangaeans can come back to life if their hearts are left undisturbed, but maybe Deer stands out somehow in this aspect?
          Was Wolf Rank 8? Anyway, somehow I feel Deer would be a Rank or two lower than Wolf, with Prey being a concept subservient to Predation. But that’s just me.

          And I do love the traditionally Lovecraftian image of “dead and dreaming” being applied to the traditionally nature/pagan/Wicca image of Deer.

          Oh, and I feel if Deer has to have a second Arcana other than Death, it’d be Spirit for better contrast with Wolf.

          EDIT: Maybe one of Deer’s powers (Dread Powers? Numina?) enable Him to return to life when killed in a way that is framed as a hunt, and even when not still return to life when the world sees a “great hunter” (ie. Wolf’s inheritor).
          Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-07-2018, 03:57 AM.


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          • I'm fairly sure Wolf was the biggest effin' Pangean, period. At least Rank wise.

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            • Originally posted by Malus View Post
              I'm fairly sure Wolf was the biggest effin' Pangean, period. At least Rank wise.
              ...did he CREATE Pangaea, though? If not, then whatever that entity is, would be the Big Boss.

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              • Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post

                ...did he CREATE Pangaea, though? If not, then whatever that entity is, would be the Big Boss.
                His death destroyed it- so it may be close enough :P


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                • Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post

                  ...did he CREATE Pangaea, though? If not, then whatever that entity is, would be the Big Boss.
                  ​As the Sundered World indicates, the werewolves certainly tell stories that Wolf brought Pangaea into being in order to satisfy its primal urge to patrol and hunt on its boundary.


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                  • Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post

                    ...did he CREATE Pangaea, though? If not, then whatever that entity is, would be the Big Boss.
                    Crazy theory; Gaia, the hypothetical Rank 9 spirit of the Earth, isn’t a spirit in the traditional sense, nor a Pangaean. Pangaea was Her physical body, the Shadow is Her spirit, and the Dark Mother of the Begotten is Her mind. When Pangaea was destroyed with the death of Wolf, its lynchpin, She shed a ghost that descended to the Underworld and drank a good deal of its waters just to make room, and is now known as the Leviathan of the Ocean of Fragments.


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                    • Deionscribe I'll have to take a better look at Turtle, and at actual lore around turtles, before I can comment.

                      With regards to Deer, I would argue that the prey is not subservient to the predator. If anything, it's the other way around. Even the most successful pack hunters in the world, African Wild Dogs, only kill their prey sixty percent of the time. Except where their population is so enormous that they might outnumber their prey thirty to one, then it's ninety percent of the time. Predators depend on their prey for sustenance.

                      I definitely think that Deer would be of equal Rank to Wolf, and would have some unique powers that interact with the Sacred Hunt like Reflection does.


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                      • "The entire balance of the world is reworked as the Great Predator’s dying howl forces a new form of harmony between flesh and spirit."

                        "As well as Influences and Numina, a Pangaean also possesses Arcana dots equal to its Rank. It casts spells using its Rank instead of Gnosis. Many Pangaeans also possess other unique powers over the world."

                        If any Pangaean has unique powers it'd be Father Wolf. If you want Pangaeans with the same Rank as Urfarah (which I personally prefer) you could make a claim that it wasn't his death that transformed the Border Marches; it was his last act that did. The shattered souls of Rat and Spider can destroy or reinforce the Gauntlet, and what's to say their Pangaean forms couldn't do even more to the Border Marches before they were shattered? If so, Wolf wouldn't be the only Pangaean with influence over the shape of the Border Marches. It's the scale of his influence that was unique.
                        And remember that the most cited reason for why Urfarah was killed was because of him showing weakness. I seriously doubt that would happen if he was one whole Rank above everyone else instead of simply being the strongest on his Rank.
                        Last edited by Tessie; 05-07-2018, 10:51 AM.


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                        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          If any Pangaean has unique powers it'd be Father Wolf. If you want Pangaeans with the same Rank as Urfarah (which I personally prefer) you could make a claim that it wasn't his death that transformed the Border Marches; it was his last act that did. The shattered souls of Rat and Spider can destroy or reinforce the Gauntlet, and what's to say their Pangaean forms couldn't do even more to the Border Marches before they were shattered? If so, Wolf wouldn't be the only Pangaean with influence over the shape of the Border Marches. It's the scale of his influence that was unique.
                          And remember that the most cited reason for why Urfarah was killed was because of him showing weakness. I seriously doubt that would happen if he was one whole Rank above everyone else instead of simply being the strongest on his Rank.
                          Or Uratha finally realized "Hey, we could take this motherfucker." And they did. Because they were built for it.

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                          • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                            Oh, and I feel if Deer has to have a second Arcana other than Death, it’d be Spirit for better contrast with Wolf.
                            I don't know- deer are a strong symbol of vitality, rebirth and, well, life. There is a reason why Stag is Life's Aeon, after all.


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                            • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                              I don't know- deer are a strong symbol of vitality, rebirth and, well, life. There is a reason why Stag is Life's Aeon, after all.
                              I was using Arcanist’s observations of Is and Means for my interpretation. Stag/Deer is a being of vitality and life, but not as its giver or master, but as a bearer of it. All so he can be the perfect prey. The cycle of the hunt is not merely vigorous but spiritual, especially in the age of Pangaea, thus my preference for Spirit. And again, better contrast with Wolf.

                              (Honestly, I’d even have only Death as Deer/Stag’s Arcanum, emphasizing the contrast even further, and leave any life-related powers to Influences, Numina and those unique Pangaean powers we don’t have a named category for. The charm of Pangaeans for me is that their Awakened power is only a part of their might, and I feel focusing too much on their Arcana detracts from that.)

                              (And was Stag specifically Life’s Aeon? Hmm, I’ll have to reread Astral Realms some time)


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                              • Originally posted by Malus View Post
                                Or Uratha finally realized "Hey, we could take this motherfucker." And they did. Because they were built for it.
                                You're not wrong, but how is it relevant to my suggestion?


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