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  • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    You're not wrong, but how is it relevant to my suggestion?
    The general notion is that Wolf kept the spirit world and the physical one separate. Logic would dictate that he had the capacity to do this (and I'm using the pronoun here extremely loosely, as loosely as a primal form of the universe has a right to them). Still, he was only one, hence why he sired his progeny, logically.

    And he made them capable of shredding Pangaeans. Which implies he himself, was able to do this, because of how influences work, or because he had that much more rank over any other. The distinction is irrelevant, he was a force to be beyond reckoned with. I believe we'd do him a disservice by presenting Pangaens that could conceivably match him.

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    • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

      I was using Arcanist’s observations of Is and Means for my interpretation. Stag/Deer is a being of vitality and life, but not as its giver or master, but as a bearer of it. All so he can be the perfect prey. The cycle of the hunt is not merely vigorous but spiritual, especially in the age of Pangaea, thus my preference for Spirit. And again, better contrast with Wolf.
      I must ask- where did Father Wolf's Arcana were stated? I don't remember seeing them in Sundered World, and I simply assumed they would probably be Life and Spirit, as those are the Arcana associated with the Uratha themselves.

      Also, as Deer would definitely have a Rank above 5 (if Wolf is 8, I assume 7), it has to have another Arcana other than Death, by RAW, even if it is one to two dots.
      Last edited by LostLight; 05-07-2018, 05:53 PM.


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      • Originally posted by Malus View Post
        The general notion is that Wolf kept the spirit world and the physical one separate. Logic would dictate that he had the capacity to do this (and I'm using the pronoun here extremely loosely, as loosely as a primal form of the universe has a right to them). Still, he was only one, hence why he sired his progeny, logically.

        And he made them capable of shredding Pangaeans. Which implies he himself, was able to do this, because of how influences work, or because he had that much more rank over any other. The distinction is irrelevant, he was a force to be beyond reckoned with. I believe we'd do him a disservice by presenting Pangaens that could conceivably match him.
        Not a bad interpretation, but my suggestion was not "this is how it probably was" but rather "this is how you could rationalise Wolf sharing Rank with other Pangaeans, if that's what you want for your setting".

        I'm okay with both possibilities. I just personally think one is more interesting than the other. In my opinion allowing other Pangaeans to share Rank with Wolf doesn't diminish his impact in the setting (creation of Uratha and the Firstborn, imposing a law over all other Pangaeans, and transforming the Border Marches into the Gauntlet) but rather allows other Pangaeans to also achieve feats of the same magnitude. That I find much more interesting.


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        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

          Not a bad interpretation, but my suggestion was not "this is how it probably was" but rather "this is how you could rationalise Wolf sharing Rank with other Pangaeans, if that's what you want for your setting".

          I'm okay with both possibilities. I just personally think one is more interesting than the other. In my opinion allowing other Pangaeans to share Rank with Wolf doesn't diminish his impact in the setting (creation of Uratha and the Firstborn, imposing a law over all other Pangaeans, and transforming the Border Marches into the Gauntlet) but rather allows other Pangaeans to also achieve feats of the same magnitude. That I find much more interesting.
          I'd rather start with what those feats are than make the Pangean first, I think.

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          • Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post

            I’d say one for a generic type of animal. One Turtle, one Cat, one Hyena, so on and so forth. Pangaeans are epic entities that had a Realm all their own. I’d keep their population low, to help preserve their aura of savage grandeur.
            Perspective understood... however that raises a few questions:

            1. How many Pangaeans are really around for the Wise to poach and steal their hearts to use? The known list only includes a few examples of their victims. The text mentions that "...a dozen lesser gods of the Border Marches now lie as festering carcasses." If the Wise of the Vinca are the same elsewhere, then surely Wolf's howl was as much to protect the Border Marches from humans flipping the script on Pangaeans as it was to protect the material world from spiritual intrusion!

            2. How many Pangaeans are around for their grand, predator-prey relationships to play out in? Noted is the observation that if the heart is left undisturbed a Pangaean will reform, however we have a raft of examples of Wolf's victims that he killed so hard they ended up as Shartha! Plus, the Pangaean Firstborn apparently ate Wolf's heart when they killed him, or we'd have him back by now (barring some strange interaction with the collapse of Pangaea into the Gauntlet).

            3. The existence of the Firstborn themselves stands as an indication that greater Pangeans could spawn lesser. Wolf could not have been the only one to try this, surely?

            4. Sundered World notes that "...shattered fragments of old gods all threaten [humanity's civilization]." While that could be read in context as referring to the Time Before, it could also be assumed to refer to the side-effect of the Pangaean predation cycle.

            Since as nofather helpfully points out, we don't actually have published, canon (versus "official" Chris Allen) stats for Pangaeans, then the question of who is out there becomes a matter for your table and story, as well as the fun of an academic exercise. Sundered World just mentioned ones we could consider "high" level Pangaeans, with we what we can assume is significant influence to the Vinca (and among the natural cycles of the world--though it mentions they are mutable creatures): The Bull, the Bird, the Snake, the Cat, the Fox, the Wolf, the Boar and The River. Wolf is mentioned as being central to the pantheon [of the Vinca], however we could surmise if needed that a different People might have structured their own pantheon a little differently based on the influencing gods at work. To reinforce this point, each of the (non-canon) write-ups of a Pangaean limits the geographic reach of their powers. Surely they did wander, however you wouldn't get a response from Bull regarding your cattle if he's always a few thousand miles away meddling in India. (Admittedly this example is flawed, as Bull handed out bits of his heart as stones, and could presumably use those as receiving stations for petitions....)

            In any event, I really appreciate the comments on structure and theme for Pangaeans reflected (ha) in this thread.

            Another thought: certainly Wolf's death-howl had world-wide consequences, and certainly within his purview he was a foremost predator in Pangaea, but what if there were others who filled his shoes in other parts of the world when he was off ranging across his preferred grounds?

            --Khanwulf

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            • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
              I must ask- where did Father Wolf's Arcana were stated? I remember seeing them in Sundered World, and I simply assumed they would probably be Life and Spirit, as those are the Arcana associated with the Uratha themselves.
              ... Huh, now that you point it out, I can’t recall a published source. I remember a mention that Wolf would have all His Arcana dots in Spirit, but I can’t recall from where... ignore me on this one

              Also, as Deer would definitely have a Rank above 5 (if Wolf is 8, I assume 7), it has to have another Arcana other than Death, by RAW, even if it is one to two dots.
              Aww, no room for Archmastery?


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              • Originally posted by Khanwulf View Post
                2. How many Pangaeans are around for their grand, predator-prey relationships to play out in? Noted is the observation that if the heart is left undisturbed a Pangaean will reform, however we have a raft of examples of Wolf's victims that he killed so hard they ended up as Shartha! Plus, the Pangaean Firstborn apparently ate Wolf's heart when they killed him, or we'd have him back by now (barring some strange interaction with the collapse of Pangaea into the Gauntlet).
                We're not quite sure what causes shartha, but one of the theories for their existence is that Father Wolf didn't manage to kill them, which is why they broke apart on their own into the hosts. Presumably this is what leads to some people thinking werewolves are hosts, with them effectively being or containing pieces of Father Wolf's heart. In this case it's likely not the Firstborn that ate his heart, but the Uratha.

                Another thought: certainly Wolf's death-howl had world-wide consequences, and certainly within his purview he was a foremost predator in Pangaea, but what if there were others who filled his shoes in other parts of the world when he was off ranging across his preferred grounds?
                That seems to be what the Uratha are all about. While Father Wolf is legended to have the entirety of Pangaea as his territory, the Uratha are more assuredly a global thing, appearing wherever humans are even well before the days of the Vinca settlements.
                Last edited by nofather; 05-07-2018, 05:59 PM.

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                • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                  I must ask- where did Father Wolf's Arcana were stated? I don't remember seeing them in Sundered World, and I simply assumed they would probably be Life and Spirit, as those are the Arcana associated with the Uratha themselves.
                  I don't recall if he had any Arcana stated anywhere, but my personal theory is Spirit primary and Space secondary. He is the hunt, and the hunt is all about where you are relative to your prey, closing distance, finding hiding places. It also fits into my personal theory of why Pangaea collapsed without shortly after his death.
                  Last edited by Gryphon's Feather; 05-07-2018, 06:48 PM.


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                  • Perhaps off-topic considering the thread title, but - as a thought experiment - what would a Rank 1 Pangaean look like?


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                    • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                      Perhaps off-topic considering the thread title, but - as a thought experiment - what would a Rank 1 Pangaean look like?
                      Something like Cryptids from Summoners (Mage 1E), I assume.


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                      • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                        An Owl behind the strix?
                        I’d say no. Strix are from the Lower Depths. Now, an owl Pangaean might associate with Strix...

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                        • Urfarah might’ve had Space and Spirit, considering his obsessive need to patrol the Border Marches.

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                          • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                            Something like Cryptids from Summoners (Mage 1E), I assume.
                            I meant as a being, lore-wise, as opposed to mechanically.


                            Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                            Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                            • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post

                              I meant as a being, lore-wise, as opposed to mechanically.
                              Beings of half Life and half Spirit who live in places where the Flesh and the Shadow cross. Sounds a lot like Pangaeans, but degraded and degenerated.


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                              • In regards to beings the same Rank as Father Wolf, the Spinner Hag, Plague King, Corpse Eater, Carrion Prince, and Sea Serpent are supposed to be vast and up there. One of the (many) theories in the books suggests that there was a sort of group of demonic entities that the Spinner Hag was part of, which may have been the other host-bearing Pangaeans, the idea being that they'd split themselves up and outlast Father Wolf and the Uratha, so their shartha descendants would reform when there was no wolves to destroy them.

                                Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
                                I’d say no. Strix are from the Lower Depths. Now, an owl Pangaean might associate with Strix...
                                When Pangaea fell, most became spirits, but some became other things. It's always possible one became the strix, or the lower depth they're supposed to be from is a Pangaean hidey-hole.

                                Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                                Perhaps off-topic considering the thread title, but - as a thought experiment - what would a Rank 1 Pangaean look like?
                                Something insignificant? It's probably why there's no such thing.'Pangaeans are always at least Rank 3, and usually Rank 5 or more.' Insignificance and weakness don't seem to have a place in Pangaea.
                                Last edited by nofather; 05-07-2018, 09:13 PM.

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