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[Dark Eras] Viking Uratha versus Christianity

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  • [Dark Eras] Viking Uratha versus Christianity

    I want to stressed ‘culture shock’ effect of confrontation between Norseman werewolves and Christianity in earliest phase of Viking era, i.e. Riding and Trading part of Era. What would be difference between Old Ways and Christianity for Uratha? And those werewolf found in the Christiandom - beside many of them being Bale Hounds from Church indoctrination? Would Viking Uratha thinking that monotheism is dangerous because of denying existence of Hisil and spirits – leading to dangerous neglecting of Shadow Realm? What could be reasons for Uratha to ride on Christian temples beyond ‘they have many currency and luxuries’? What enemies they can found they did not have in their North lands – beside vampires in monasteries?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-10-2017, 08:37 AM.


    Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
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  • #2
    But did Christianity actively ignore the supernatural back then? The only reason modern Christians don't talk that much about demons and angels walking amidst us is because the modern world has become more secular. Superstitions, village hedge-witches, praying to guardians - the spread of Christianity didn't stop them from occuring, and in many cases actively blended them with their own lore to create a rich and diverse culture, even if they got removed from their roots. The stuff you wrote about Bale Hounds is exactly that sort of case; where people interpret the supernatural under a largely Christian cosmology.

    Wasn't all this in Dark Eras, though? I'll have to reread it to avoid reinventing the wheel. In the mean time, I imagine at least some werewolves interpret the Firstborn, Urfarah and Luna as archangels, or even facets of God.


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    • #3
      Considering your setting has most Christian werewolves being Bale Hounds they might see it as a negative due to that.

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      • #4
        But did belief in Devil was popular in circa 800 in Christiandom? I ask if Bale Hounds have logical fundaments to be there.


        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
        My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
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        • #5
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Would Viking Uratha thinking that monotheism is dangerous because of denying existence of Hisil and spirits – leading to dangerous neglecting of Shadow Realm?
          ​I don't see why they would. Christianity was, in that respect, no different to the pre-existing faiths in the area. Regular humans following the old faiths had no idea about spirits and the Shadow, and any Uratha who did choose to believe the Christian faith themselves wouldn't suddenly forget the existence of the Hisil and everything they knew about it.


          - Chris Allen
          Freelance Writer, The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Acrozatarim View Post
            Regular humans following the old faiths had no idea about spirits and the Shadow, and any Uratha who did choose to believe the Christian faith themselves wouldn't suddenly forget the existence of the Hisil and everything they knew about it.
            But did not the polytheism of old faith just makes it more 'in tune' with how Hisil works? Did not monotheism of Christanity leading to overlooking some dynamics that before were sustianed by sacrifices to Old Gods?


            Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
            My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
            MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              But did not the polytheism of old faith just makes it more 'in tune' with how Hisil works?
              Nope.

              Did not monotheism of Christanity leading to overlooking some dynamics that before were sustianed by sacrifices to Old Gods?
              ​Overhauling under a new religion certainly could result in breaking with pre-existing, established spiritual interaction patterns in an area. Doesn't matter whether that's polytheistic or monotheistic.

              Were an existing religion to involve leaving seven fresh corpses beneath a tree under the first new moon every year, it doesn't matter whether it's because of a pagan priest being duped by a hungry spirit into demanding sacrifices from the town because it's a branch of Yggsdrasil and Nithoggr needs to be placated, or because it's a Christian priest being duped by a hungry spirit into conducting a holy rite whereby particularly virtuous people who pass away are buried on Saint Whoever's Night under the tree where reputedly Joseph of Aramathea stopped on his travels.

              ​When Christianity moves into an area, a load of spirits are gonna lose out and the ecology is going to become even more unstable, at least for a while. Over time, the spiritual nobles and opportunists, the powerful and the cunning, will resettle into a new status quo based off the changes. Both pre and post change, they're going to be trying to inflict their influence on the flesh and the mortals who live therein. Neither is inherently superior to the other.


              - Chris Allen
              Freelance Writer, The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

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              • #8
                Think less overt war, more soft influence.


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                • #9
                  although it is true that at that time Rome was more likely to burn you for believing that your neighbor was practicing witchcraft (belief in witchcraft was heresy) than for actually practicing witchcraft yourself (because witchcraft doesn't exist and all power comes from the Lord). So, more belief in divine power, but Catholic dogma at the time tended to actually downplay the role of other supernatural entities in daily life, superstitious local preachers and demonologists notwithstanding

                  I'm technically at work right now, so I'll post the source on this later when I have time to backtrack to where I learned this from


                  A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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                  • #10
                    Oh boy something I know!!

                    First how i'd view it, (and this coincides with my own pagan beliefs) spirits have as much power as they gain essence aye? The upheavel you're referring to would more likely be the christ spirit take root and gaining territory, conquered from the norse spirits but the growing essence delivery. The hisil may become a sort of warzone between the two faiths spiritual courts.

                    As for changing of culture and religious understanding, according to a book i've been reading: "Witchcraft and magic in the nordic middle ages" by Stephen A. Mitchell, the norse folk were just as superstitious POST conversion as they were pre conversion. They argue that the major factor of the rituals and magic would be the deity invoked, as opposed to outright ignoring the supernatural entirely. We don't see an eradication of local stereotypes until after the Mallus Malificorum comes about (late 1400's) and the early 1500 trials and demonologies n such. There lies the major changes that we're familiar with in our modern era. Before that time period people were just as likely to do local regional rituals, they'd just invoke a saint or christ as opposed to Odin or Thor, or any number of local Vaettir if that's their flavor.

                    edit:

                    To go more along with the main post, having read up on the concept of tribalism and the us vs them mentality, the Uratha have their own culture, their own higher religious order that they adhere to. I would argue that you wouldn't find "heathen" vs "christian" Uratha so much as Uratha that follow Odin vs Uratha that follow Christ (as totems) vying for territory and regional control. At the end of the day they're still Uratha, and whether pure or forsaken the likelihood of them fundamentally changing their world view about the moon/bitch mother to "the one god vs the filthy pagans" is pretty damn nill. Especially when you consider the time period and lack of external influences in tribes that can now self breed. Using werewolf the apocalypse as an example, their tribes interbreed and support their own numbers (As best they can) and so they have their own lore and stories that are completely independent of what the walking apes have come up with. Id say its the same situation for the Uratha, and particularly 2nd ed uratha as now they can procreate amongst themselves, and I see little to no reason at all for them to not propagate their own tribes. Infact i would argue that the likelihood of "rainbow" packs should be fairly rare, and more packs should be composed of tribal members for homogenous operation and territory control. This time period is lacking the whole "tower of babylon" effect that we have in the modern world.
                    Last edited by Lyrics Of War; 02-13-2017, 09:55 PM.


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