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[2E] Werewolves and Social Maneuvering

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  • [2E] Werewolves and Social Maneuvering

    Inspired by Charlaquin latest super post on topic of Social Maneuvering, I wonder how Uratha use it in day-to-day game? Would convincing entity to your goal count as successful Sacred Hunt? From 2E corebooks descirption, it sounds as only humans, wolf-blooded, Uratha and spirits be able to be 'talked over' with SM mechanics.


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  • #2
    If you can talk to it, and it has motives and wants of its own, then it can probably be Maneuvered. Unless it's one of those "has a too vast consciousness" entities, like Rank 6+ spirits.

    And yes I would consider a successful Social Maneuver to be a successful Hunt, as long as the Hunt wasn't framed as "kill" or "destroy."


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    • #3
      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
      And yes I would consider a successful Social Maneuver to be a successful Hunt, as long as the Hunt wasn't framed as "kill" or "destroy."
      Sacred Hunt need to be 'framed'? You do not simply call of the Prey you Hunt for?
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-21-2017, 03:12 AM.


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      • #4
        The nature of the Siskur-Dah Condition's resolution doesn't really make Opening Doors an viable option. Forcing Doors or Social Chases do seem like that could be a valid Sacred Hunt though. You have to take your prey down, which doesn't really seem to mesh will with trying to make your case to them to do you a favor. The Rite also includes getting a spirit to teach you a Rite or Gift without needing to go through extra rolls, so just defeating them in a clear fashion should be enough for the right Hunt.

        The game definitely leaves the option open for non-physical hunts, but the hunt has to involved... well... hunting them down and beating them in some fashion.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
          If you can talk to it, and it has motives and wants of its own, then it can probably be Maneuvered. Unless it's one of those "has a too vast consciousness" entities, like Rank 6+ spirits.

          And yes I would consider a successful Social Maneuver to be a successful Hunt, as long as the Hunt wasn't framed as "kill" or "destroy."
          Indeed. If your Elodoth successfully socially maneuvers a volcanic spirit of rank 4/5 into not erupting and causing untold death and destruction, you're down to some amazing Renown when your hunt's aim was "figure out what making all these earthquakes and put a stop to it."

          Even if you had to bind it, or offer it your virgin sister as a sacrifice by actually convincing it wants your virgin sister as a sacrifice in lieu with "untold death and destruction".

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          • #6
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

            Sacred Hunt need to be 'framed'? You do not simply call of the Prey you Hunt for?
            I meant the wording of what the werewolves intend do to the prey. You don't always have to kill it, although that's the most common way to end the Hunt. Malus gave a good example below; "Find out the source of these earthquakes and stop them."


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            • #7
              So Sacred Hunt need to have stated clear goal, rather than only 'we hunt XYZ Prey'?


              Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
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              • #8
                I'm going to have do say that, "find out the source of these earthquakes," is not a valid Sacred Hunt. It might be a small h hunt, but it's not something intended for the Rite.

                The wording of the Rite is, "The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names."

                The Sacred Hunt needs to state the intended prey, which is not phrased as including abstract concepts or general goals. You can't Sacred Hunt poverty, or the murder of your sibling. You can Sacred Hunt a spirit of poverty, and you can Sacred Hunt your sibling's murderers (even if you don't know who they are yet!).

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                • #9
                  I think there's a very good reason why the social abilities of werewolves revolve around lying to prey to set them up or to inspire violence. Anyways, can social maneuvering be the end result of a hunt? Sure. Can social maneuvering count as opting out fo hunting? Absolutley.

                  The thing here is that it all depends on context. Maneuvering is basically a series of smaller social encounters with Doors in place of Social Health. If those smaller social encounters are all hunt-y, then the Maneuvering as a whole is hunty. Just like you can have combat be a form of hunt, and have combat that's not anything approaching a hunt. Same with Investigation rolls. Could be hunt-y, could be non-hunty.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    I'm going to have do say that, "find out the source of these earthquakes," is not a valid Sacred Hunt. It might be a small h hunt, but it's not something intended for the Rite.

                    The wording of the Rite is, "The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names."

                    The Sacred Hunt needs to state the intended prey, which is not phrased as including abstract concepts or general goals. You can't Sacred Hunt poverty, or the murder of your sibling. You can Sacred Hunt a spirit of poverty, and you can Sacred Hunt your sibling's murderers (even if you don't know who they are yet!).
                    I agree for the most part, but I would say "the source of these earthquakes" is just as valid a prey for a Sacred Hunt as "my brother's murderers". In both cases, you don't know the prey's identity, and discovering it becomes a necessary part of the hunt.


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                    • #11
                      I think while it's technically valid, it's probably not a wise move unless beforehand there's some demonstrable evidence of the source being, say, more than the movement of tectonic plates.

                      It's the kind of thing that might not be worth a Sacred Hunt.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nofather View Post
                        I think while it's technically valid, it's probably not a wise move unless beforehand there's some demonstrable evidence of the source being, say, more than the movement of tectonic plates.

                        It's the kind of thing that might not be worth a Sacred Hunt.
                        Yeah it seems like an I'll-advised Hunt to call. Arguably if they are being caused by the movement of tectonic plates, there may be a spirit responsible for that. But that's going to be prey beyond the ability of a pack of werewolves to defeat.


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                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          The wording of the Rite is, "The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names."

                          The Sacred Hunt needs to state the intended prey, which is not phrased as including abstract concepts or general goals. You can't Sacred Hunt poverty, or the murder of your sibling. You can Sacred Hunt a spirit of poverty, and you can Sacred Hunt your sibling's murderers (even if you don't know who they are yet!).
                          "Those responsible for the poverty in our neighborhood." is also another example of prey designators.

                          Originally posted by Charlaquin
                          I agree for the most part, but I would say "the source of these earthquakes" is just as valid a prey for a Sacred Hunt as "my brother's murderers". In both cases, you don't know the prey's identity, and discovering it becomes a necessary part of the hunt.
                          Originally posted by nofather
                          I think while it's technically valid, it's probably not a wise move unless beforehand there's some demonstrable evidence of the source being, say, more than the movement of tectonic plates.
                          A slight twist of wording to "those capable of stopping these earthquakes" provides a brutal track down and force to do our bidding upon pain of dissolution by essence drain of a spirit option to resolve said issue (you don't have to drain all its essence in the Sacred Hunt, but can do so and thus have hard leverage, this is likely why from a story point of view spirits need more than hard leverage, making the story more than a single act play)


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                            "Those responsible for the poverty in our neighborhood." is also another example of prey designators.
                            Very true, though I was trying to come up with an individual example and a group example as the text of the Rite states.

                            nofather beat me to my response to the earthquake things. It seems to me the natural flow of the story would be: find out the earthquakes have a specific entity as a source, call the Sacred Hunt against that source, proceed. Rather than: call the Sacred Hunt, find out if there's an actual valid source the Rite qualifies for, proceed.

                            I also don't want the Rite to turn into some sort of weird meta-game tool where the players try to call a Hunt and if there isn't a valid target it fails (telling them there's no target without having investigated it), so I'd much rather run it such that you have to have a valid target in mind to perform the Rite.

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                            • #15
                              Still, returning to topic, as you need always to call the Prey of the Hunt in Rite - and Prey most of the time is inteligent being - you still probably can do Social Maneuvering on Prey as way to Sacred Hunt? So could 'making Spirit Lord our ally' as proper Sacred Hunt resolution?


                              Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                              My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                              MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

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