Do Werewolves leave ghosts behind when they die?

[Aristarkos]

Skimming the book did not reveal the answer. I would like to know, so I can plan properly my next few games. I do like the idea of a Werewolf leaving a SPIRIT behind with traits based on their Renown rather than a ghost, but I'd like to know if there is a canon on this.

Also, another questions: can werewolves with the proper Gifts (Barghest for example) devour ghosts for essence just like they can with spirits and not just drain them of WP as that Gift says? Would this count as a Harmony breaking point?

[Pale_Crusader]

Ghosts are echoes of people, things, and places which have ceased to be. Werewolves definitely fall between the category of things (a remarkably vague term) and people (fairly vague, but less vague than things).

Second Question: Ghosts have Essence according to Canon, the Sacred Hunt allow the draining of Essence from the target of a successful Sacred Hunt, and lastly Ghosts are a valid target Prey of a Sacred Hunt. So calling a Sacred Hunt against a ghost is all that is needed to destroy it, (or learn gifts appropriate to its nature).

Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong.

(In my game Ghosts don't have Essence, they have Plasm, why leave unused the template fuel sources that could be used for more thematically appropriate Ephemeral beings?)

[RomulusGloriosus]

If you want to be Fun, you could say a Werewolf could leave behind a ghost AND a spirit.

Why not??

[nofather]

If they do, it's never been mentioned. There's nothing explicitly saying they don't, but the one thing we can be sure of is werewolf ghosts, if they existed, wouldn't go to the Underworld.

While they don't leave spirits behind, they traditionally have ancestor spirits. These are not really a spirit of an individual werewolf so much as the memories of a werewolfs lineage or family and legend.

We've discussed it here.

As for devouring them for Essence, sure. It would justify a Breaking Point towards spirit, it's not a very fleshly thing to do.

I don't believe you'd be able to learn Gifts from a Ghost, it's an inherently spirit-based phenomena, doing so would require a very unnatural ghost. But yes you could drain one of Essence to destroy it pretty easily, there's Lodges dedicated to it, such as the Lodge of Cerberus. A fetish that alters the Barghest Gift or some other fetish or Gift might do it as well.

As for using the Sacred Hunt to do so, the rite does explicitly call for the Essence draining to be used on a spirit. But this is the kind of thing special lodge Sacred Hunt advantages can take care of.

[Pale_Crusader]

If they do, it's never been mentioned. There's nothing explicitly saying they don't, but the one thing we can be sure of is werewolf ghosts, if they existed, wouldn't go to the Underworld.

While they don't leave spirits behind, they traditionally have ancestor spirits. These are not really a spirit of an individual werewolf so much as the memories of a werewolfs lineage or family and legend.

We've discussed it here.

As for devouring them for Essence, sure. It would justify a Breaking Point towards spirit, it's not a very fleshly thing to do.

I don't believe you'd be able to learn Gifts from a Ghost, it's an inherently spirit-based phenomena, doing so would require a very unnatural ghost. But yes you could drain one of Essence to destroy it pretty easily, there's Lodges dedicated to it, such as the Lodge of Cerberus. A fetish that alters the Barghest Gift or some other fetish or Gift might do it as well.

As for using the Sacred Hunt to do so, the rite does explicitly call for the Essence draining to be used on a spirit. But this is the kind of thing special lodge Sacred Hunt advantages can take care of.

Re-reading the Sacred Hunt rite and condition, you are absolutely right. Thank you for correcting me.

SACRED HUNT (••)
The Sacred Hunt, the Siskur-Dah, is the most holy of all rites. Many werewolves believe that it draws upon the laws of the hunt that the Wolf-Mother herself personified.

Symbols: The hunt, prey, claws or weapons, blood Sample Rite: Blood Talon ritemasters commonly use a circling dance of participants, with the Urathas’ claws marked with blood or ash. The ritemaster wears a mask representing the intended prey, and what follows is a mock-hunt around the dancing circle as the ritemaster seeks to break free. (Dexterity
+ Athletics)
Action: Extended (10 successes; each roll represents 1
minute)
Success: The rite binds hunters and prey into the Siskur- Dah. All werewolves present are cast as the hunters. The ritemaster must indicate the intended prey during the rite, which can be an individual or a group, but they do not need to be identified with precise details or names.
The rite has three effects:
All participating werewolves gain the Siskur-Dah Condition.
If the Uratha bring down a spirit that is the prey of this rite, they may divide its remaining Essence amongst themselves as they see fit; this can be used to destroy a spirit by draining all its Essence and discorporating it, but doing so is usually a breaking point toward Spirit and is seen as disrespectful if done without good reason.
If the Uratha chase down spirit-prey that knows the symbols of a rite or can carve the secret of a Gift, any Uratha hunter present can expend the necessary Experiences to be marked with the Gift or learn the rite from the spirit. If this is done, the hunters do not get any Essence if they then bring the spirit down, and doing so is a breaking point toward Spirit.

SISKUR-DAH (PERSISTENT )

Your character is on the Siskur-Dah, the Sacred Hunt. She gains a specific benefit depending on the ritemaster’s tribe.
The Blood Talon Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to perceive the Renown brands of werewolf prey. She can see them as a clear silver glow (or a fiery red for Pure) and can read the prey’s value in each Renown with a reflexive action.
The Bone Shadow Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to touch and strike ephemeral entities nominated as prey with her natural weapons.
The Hunter in Darkness Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to sense the state of the Gauntlet in your presence; you are constantly aware of its current strength and if it has been increased or decreased compared to its normal strength; if the hunt’s prey is responsible then you know this. You can also sense any other breaches in reality that your prey has moved through in the last lunar month — gateways to places and realms other than the Shadow.
The Iron Master Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to choose which of the Lunacy Conditions she inflicts on humans while hunting the prey.
The Storm Lord Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to clearly perceive prey that is possessed, Urged, or Claimed. If your character looks at a Ridden human who is the prey of the hunt, for example, she will see the spirit coiled up within him.
Source; The Sacred Hunt rite, or being personally blessed by a Firstborn.
Resolution: The prey is brought down (a kill is not necessary) or the pack breaks off the Siskur-Dah by taking any significant actions towards ends other than the hunt.
Beat: Your character achieves an exceptional success on an action involving the prey.

Though the Storm Lord and Bone Shadow's benefits are vague enough to include Ghosts and other stranger Ephemeral beings.

[nofather]

I think Bone Shadow's benefit is pretty clear that you can strike any ephemeral entity with it. Provided they're nominated as prey, which can be the problem if Ghost King has a bunch of Ghost Knights.

Storm Lord seems just as open, though I believe Claiming is less common outside of spirits.

They're hunters, and while the five sacred prey and idigam are more likely to be their enemies, it's entirely possible for them to fight the whole gamut of supernatural and mundane antagonists.

[Pale_Crusader]

I think it's pretty clear you can strike any ephemeral entity with it. Provided they're nominated as prey, which can be the problem if Ghost King has a bunch of Ghost Knights.

Apologies, I meant vague as an antonym for 'specific' not as antonym for 'clear', though the word bears the weight of both meanings. 'Nonspecific' or 'general' would have been better word choices on my part.

Back on topic,

Are you drawing the conclusion that werewolves don't have ghost in the underworld from the Book of the Dead? If so which page, and if not where are you drawing that from? Thank you in advance.

[nofather]

Back on topic,

Are you drawing the conclusion that werewolves don't have ghost in the underworld from the Book of the Dead? If so which page, and if not where are you drawing that from? Thank you in advance.

That's the place.

P57, 'Werewolves are not human and their souls are already spoken for. Whatever happens to a werewolf’s spirit upon death, it doesn’t descend into the Great Below. While a werewolf might have legitimate reasons to enter the Underworld, she feels a palpable sense of dread during her journey there. Some werewolves, members of the Bone Shadows tribe especially, might be able to ignore that feeling and give in to curiosity, but sooner or later the werewolf can no longer overlook the truth: I don’t belong here.'

Aside from that, it's probably worth pointing out that by the time Geist the Sin-Eaters was published, and the Book of the Dead, most Forsaken books were already out and only a couple more would be made. Basically, the Underworld wasn't really fleshed out as a thing until Forsaken winded down its publishing. Presumably with second edition we'll get more clear cut explanations.

[The young man in the cafe]

In my take on the CofD, I like to imply that the forsaken tribes sometimes have their own afterlives beliefs in the vein of the Fired Touched one, and in fact may have started the stories in response to the fire touched.

If they exist, they are the personal Shadow Kingdoms of the Forsaken First Born, which I make by mashing together the appropriate WtA umbra realms. Red Wolf's domain/ The Iron Master afterlife (I like to call it "The City" but in first tongue), for example, is sort of a mash up of the more high tech umbra realms, with the Glass Walker and Bone Gnawer homelands turning into the "residential" sections of the Iron Master afterlife and the Cyber Realm and Scar becoming the commercial and industrial sectors/"hunting ground" (the more dangerous humans are literally there to be hunted, any Iron master that gets "killed" on one these eternal hunts just wakes up in their apartment or penthouse in the home and instead of Wyrm and Weaver Spirits running things as the Barons of industry such, it's red wolf and his council of his 2nd born wolf spirit children and the greatest heroes of the Iron Masters.

And when I said the humans in the not-Scar and not-cyber-realm exist to be hunted, I mean that humans killed in an Iron Master Sacred Hunt wind up in those areas of Red Wolf's domain, to be hunted and killed again and again for all eternity. Human and wolf-blooded packmates of Iron Masters, on the other hand, wind up "living" with their Uratha packmates in the residential areas.

The other forsaken tribes have something similar going on.

I am trying to come with cool names for the neighborhoods that sound cool in first tongue.