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any help with plague spirit?? forsaken 2ED

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  • any help with plague spirit?? forsaken 2ED

    hi there, i m having some problems creating a plague spirit: my pg ( one ww and 2 mage) will have to ( probabily) fight a plague spirit (set in venezia, 1817, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_of_Sighs ) borned from pest during years, (medieval years) and disperation of . They will fight her in the shadows. Don t wanna bore you with details, but i have the idea, but can t understand some mechanics. First of all influence. In the manual isn t explained very well, So, because i don t wanna create just a brutal fighter, but wanna make them feel the pain caused by one of the most deadly deases of mankind , how could i use influence? and what kind of influence should her have?? Pain? Sorrow??

    Second, the Numina. Can t find any source on forsaken book about how many Numina a spirit can have.
    Because i thought to give her rank 3 ( or 4??), i supposed that the spirit should have 7 ( or 9) Numina, according to spirits example in the Prey chapter

    Now, i supposed that surrounding area in the Hisil, should reflect her domain, like other lesser spirit of sorrow, tainted by plague, rotten building, gallows pole of the time when people have sentenced to death for their crimes, stuff like these.

    For ban , i v thought to make taste of desperation to every souls she can sense
    for bane, a source of pure joy or happiness, but i think is to difficult to apply, expecially in a fight ( the werewolf has a gift to know the ban and bane)

    The real problem i am facing is the gauru form: there is no challenge for him during gauru, and obviously, i can t give silver to any foe, so, could you help me??
    Thank you

  • #2
    Hmm, does it have to be a plague spirit? Looking that Wiki article, the spirit of the Bridge itself may be more narratively fit. It would then be a spirit of lament, specifically attuned to the regret of criminals as they face their due. If the spirit is both at the same time, then you have what werewolves call a magath at your hands; a spirit with incompatible or even conflicting Resonances.

    In any case, a plague spirit can simply have Influence: Disease. At Rank 3 it can Control diseases, making it behave it obviously unnatural ways such as contracting without a vector or cause symptoms it shouldn't have. At Rank 4 it can Create diseases so that people start catching diseases spontaneously. If the spirit is of the Bridge, then it probably has Influence: Lament or similar emotion. Not good for combat, but good for making the wolves less likely to start a fight in the first place by infecting them with regret over their past mistakes and wrongdoings.

    As a magath it needs Influences in both, so it most likely can't do dramatic things like Create Influence, or even Control Influence depending on what Rank it is and how you distribute Influence dots. Still, it can do something like Strengthening already existing illnesses and blue moods, or Manipulating so they all happen to catch one packmate's illness or suddenly start reflecting over that one incident in the past they can't let go.

    The no. of Numina ranges are 1-3, 3-5, 5-7, 7-9, and 9-11 in order of Rank. So a spirit with seven Numina can be either Rank 3 or 4.

    You're on the track with describing the local environment.

    A spirit's ban is basically what it does under a serious case of obsessive-compulsive behavior. So it can't be about sensing desperation. Maybe something to do with sighes, considering the location's name and the legends behind it?

    A spirit's bane should be something material. Maybe the cuffs and chains of a criminal who was pardoned at execution day, or something related to healing diseases?

    Gauru is the killing form, used sparingly at the climax of the battle to make sure the prey is dead. The real challenge is dragging the spirit to the killing fields, and preventing it from running away. Oh, and making sure the spirit stays dead, or at least promises not to bother the pack.


    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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    • #3
      This homebrew thread by Reighnhell should be of help. They have a generic Disease Spirit statted up, and examples of high-Rank spirits you can refer to when building similar entities.


      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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      • #4
        thank you for answer
        well, i m deciding about what kind of spirit create, because the plague killed thousan of people during medieval age. The people died by death penalty is not even close to that number, so i was supposing that renosance of plague should be a far better reason to create a spirit. Din t have think about the Magath.. now i could be in some troubles ahahah
        I think they can handle a rank 4, and cutting a couple of numina, the spirit could have 6 influence dots.. could be fine you think??

        Now, about what you wrote, could the spirit infect and speed up the incubation time maybe?? Make the syntoms appear in terms of "rounds" instead of days?
        In this way she could exhaust them before a physical fight, where lesser spirits could aid her while thousan of desperation sighs and cries inflict some nasty conditions??

        About the total destruction of spirit, i think my ww pc will call upon the Sisku-Da. In this way they just need to destroy corpus, is it right?? (because he can take all essences remained)

        the ban/bane you suggested are perfect, and awesome, really thanks

        About the rage, my pc used the ritual to chain the rage into a jar. By the way, does it work only once? or till the duration expire??

        edit: 21C Hermit thank you, i m gonna take a look

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dante90 View Post
          thank you for answer
          well, i m deciding about what kind of spirit create, because the plague killed thousan of people during medieval age. The people died by death penalty is not even close to that number, so i was supposing that renosance of plague should be a far better reason to create a spirit. Din t have think about the Magath.. now i could be in some troubles ahahah
          I think they can handle a rank 4, and cutting a couple of numina, the spirit could have 6 influence dots.. could be fine you think??
          Actually, considering what plagues usually entail, the spirit could have Influence over both Disease and Lament without being magath. Just say that it was born from the weeping tears of patients and their families, and it fits perfectly. The Bridge could just be where it decided to pass by, or maybe the bridge was built over it while sleeping.

          Rank 4 spirits can be terrifyingly powerful, but if your pack can handle it then go for it. With six dots of Influences it can have some really mean Influences between Disease and Lament.

          Now, about what you wrote, could the spirit infect and speed up the incubation time maybe?? Make the syntoms appear in terms of "rounds" instead of days?
          In this way she could exhaust them before a physical fight, where lesser spirits could aid her while thousan of desperation sighs and cries inflict some nasty conditions??
          Don't remember how the exact mechanics work, but that's exactly how to use high levels of Influence: Disease in a fight. You can go further and have the spirit attack the pack's human members, friends and families, or even bystanders. That'll keep them busy, and if the spirit plays its cards right the pack might take a while to suspect spiritual involvement.

          About the total destruction of spirit, i think my ww pc will call upon the Sisku-Da. In this way they just need to destroy corpus, is it right?? (because he can take all essences remained)
          Yes indeed. And if the pack is feeling particularly evil, they can force it to surrender at the last moment, and then destroy it with its Corpus remaining by eating up all its Essence. The Siskur-Dah explicitly allows that. Just be careful of Breaking towards Spirit, and the animosity the pack will draw from every spirit around the area. Oh, and a missed chance to obtain Gifts or rites from the surrendered spirit.

          About the rage, my pc used the ritual to chain the rage into a jar. By the way, does it work only once? or till the duration expire??
          Will have to check later, since I'm not with the Werewolf book right now.


          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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          • #6
            Righto. Some thoughts:

            ​Influences. If it's a plague spirit, it should probably have Influence (Disease). Depending on the spirit rank, you'd be looking at the following sorts of things with the different levels of Influence: 1 dot, Strengthen, it could use to increase the effects of a disease someone is suffering, to make the disease harder to resist, and to make it harder to remove or cure. With 2 dots at Manipulate, the spirit might cause the disease to spread from one victim to particular targets that it has in mind (as long as there is a viable vector that it could happen down), to hasten its progress to an increased rate, to cause it to spare a victim, or other relatively subtle directions that could easily be overlooked as entirely natural. With 3 dots at Control it can, well, outright control the plague at a fine level, including getting it to act, spread, reduce or effect in ways that are clearly not just natural patterns. At 4 dots, the spirit can flat out create disease in healthy victims without any existing source of the plague; but that requires a rank 4 spirit, which is going to be a fairly heavyweight foe.

            What does this mean in play? Well, it you're looking at Rank 3+, it's a pretty horrific foe just off the Influences. With enough Strengthen, its infections could pose a threat for even a werewolf or mages with Life, making it extremely hard to remove the plague from them, and if they're daft enough to come into its presence already diseased then it can crank the effects up to eleven even so, it's far better to go after softer targets.

            ​If the spirit is high Rank, it'll be smart enough to be able to plan, and if it's aware the team are coming after it, it may have established contingencies. Exactly how effective these will be depend on the info it has managed to gather about the team, but one basic idea is the human plague bomb - take a diseased human (or just infect one) and use Influence to make them spread supernaturally virulent plague in a populated area. This could be done by something as subtle as the victim hacking and coughing and just hanging around or, if you're feeling a bit more body-horror, a buboe-covered plague-stricken shambler staggering into a crowd and having their cankers literally explode in a spray of concentrated disease essence. With the right Numina this can be done via programming the human victim, or if the spirit has minions it could get one to possess or claim the victim to get them to do what is desired. Regardless, point being, the spirit can turn round to would-be attackers and tell them it's set (insert symbolic number for the setting here) number of plague bombs on routes through the city to key crowded areas of people who haven't yet been infected, where they will spread the plague, and the team can either stop that or fight the spirit.

            ​Other possibilities include specifically going after the PCs support base, infecting allies with the disease and generally trying to target them and victimise them amidst the general chaos of the plague. It's a spirit, so barring warding by the werewolf or magicians, it can go anywhere it wants; it can reach the vulnerable behind any mundane door or wall to create disease, or ensure that a brief bit of contact with the sick quickly blooms into full contagion. Worse, worse, it can stop the plague​. It won't particularly want to, in general, but if the group lack the right solutions to disease (like Life magic), then it could target someone important to them and then put the disease into stasis, hanging it over them as a threat - ​come for me and your friend/loved one/vital ally will die screaming from the plague. Leave me alone and they get to live.

            Numina. Number of numina is indicated in the chart on page 183 of the WtF 2e corebook.

            ​Surroundings and domain. Yes, if the spirit is the dominant spirit of the local area, you can get a lot of evocative description from having it reflect said spirit. Notably, if it's powerful and this plague is spreading through the city, it may well control a brood of lesser spirits. These let you have lesser, but still problematic, threats for the PCs to face, as well as giving the spirit the means to affect goings-on beyond its immediate presence. Having spirit servitors helps establish it as a heavyweight in the Shadow; if the PCs are dealing with it initially via lesser spiritual messengers it sends, for example.

            ​Ban and Bane should reflect something about the nature of the spirit and what it is a physical reflection of. For inspiration, I'd look at the specifics of the plague that birthed it. If the game were set earlier, I'd have a Ban involving something to do with perfumes or sweet smells or people wearing plague doctor masks, but I think that by the 1800s that sort of thing was mostly in the past (may be wrong, though). For the Bane, think of something people directly used to drive back or heal the plague, or to get rid of its traces. It doesn't have to be obvious and direct; it can be symbolic, or connected by harder-to-see lines of narrative logic.

            ​Gauru form. Gauru isn't really a problem here. Against a high-Rank spirit, the werewolf will need it just to be able to weather the storm of the spirit's powers and attacks, and if there are lesser spirits as well then that provides the spirit with a nice buffer of minions to soak up some of the team's offensive capabilities. However, ultimately gauru is about killing​, so a confrontation that demands things other than killing adds challenge. The aforementioned plaguewalkers that have to be tracked down and stopped, for example. Or perhaps the spirit has stolen away the corpse of the first Venetian to have fallen to the plague in this particular outbreak and turned it into some sort of Essence focus in the Shadow, empowering the spirit further, and someone needs to climb the spirit-gibbet, pry open the cage made of raw hate and pain at the top, and defile the corpse within to destroy the channel. Perhaps it has abducted plague victims into the Shadow and keeps them like a larder, each with the plague but slowed down via its Influences so that it has a long-term 'food' supply of Essence (and infected victims it can throw back into the Flesh to spread disease further) - and someone needs to heal​ these victims to weaken the spirit, or at least to perform a symbolic act of healing on them (like blessing them with holy water or whatever) to break the plague's Essence-connection to them. Etc etc. Basically, if you want a confrontation to have challenges that gauru can't solve, look at adding non-combat elements.

            However, don't​ do something that just nerfs gauru form or renders it weakened or what not. Let the werewolf shine when in gauru form and trying to do what the form is designed for - murdering the crap out of things. A high-Rank spirit will still be a serious challenge there.


            - Chris Allen
            Freelance Writer, The Pack / Dark Eras / Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd Edition / Idigam Anthology / Fallen World Chronicle / Trinity Aeon

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            • #7
              wow guys, these answers are full of ideas!!
              i'm working on it!!
              for now, rank 3 seems to be fairly powerfull, and i guess will be enough. So i'm focusing on influence (deases), and maybe, just to create the right mood ( first minute of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bahM...BdnA&index=130 ) i can create a slave sub-spirit with influence (lament), just to be annoying .

              How many lesser spirits could be commanded by the big one?? I was thinking about, in case they will chose to fight, to use some lesser spirits: in this way every pc could be able to enjoy the fight ( expecially the WW, and if he will make a choice: using him now or later for the real boss??). Then i could use some nasty tactics like you said.

              But i'm concidering the possibility in wich the WW will chose the pact for the gift.
              Wich gift could reflect the knowledge held by this spirit?? cause the gift in the manual are far from reflecting her knowledge and powers

              Anyway, thank you again, it s a lot of materials to think about

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              • #8
                Any number you think your pack can handle. It's hard to say exactly how many, since that has so many variables linking back to it.

                1e had the Gift of Disease or something like that, and I think there was a fan-made 2e conversion up here in the forums. Can't remember where, though. You could also have the spirit cough up disease-infecting or disease-healing rites.


                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                • #9
                  Yeah the first edition Gift of Disease tree was great, just offhand I think it was my personal favorite, though I liked the Fever one too. Disease was from the Pure book, and the Pure really had some cool Gifts. So glad it's been officially opened up, even if we don't have an official conversion.

                  They can have a lot of servitors but you might decide to winnow it down to a couple lieutenants or a few 'swarms' of first rank spirits that they can deal with via the Down and Dirty fighting.
                  Last edited by nofather; 03-06-2017, 08:55 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Here's a 2e conversion by Deionscribe.
                    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 03-06-2017, 09:50 PM. Reason: Fixed the link to include the whole thread.


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                    • #11
                      thank you guys!! awesome!!

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