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  • WtF terminology

    Just a curiosity I had. Why was so much terminology changed in the switch from WtA? I realize this question is more than a decade behind and has undoubtedly been covered numerous times, but as I was reading through the 2E book it just occurred to me to ask.

  • #2
    Werewolf: The Forsaken is a different game and not just a newer edition with a different title. Using different terminology helps cement that.

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    • #3
      It's almost like a different game or something.

      You'll notice that Mages don't have Spheres and Demons aren't Judeo-Christian either.


      Just call me Lex.

      Female pronouns for me, please.

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      • #4
        Because Forsaken is meant to be its own game, even though first edition carried a lot of baggage. Klaives was just an artifact of Apocalypse terminology, didn't have anything to do with what they were in Forsaken. A fetish weapon is a fetish weapon. The same with the spirit ranks, gaffling and jaggling didn't fit into the First Tongue, which only went halfway in first edition in naming things. Second edition decided to get rid of the rest of the artifacts of Apocalypse and embrace its own setting fully.

        Stew mentioned it in the open development.

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        • #5
          Same reason so much terminology changed between Halo and Destiny. Different games, man.


          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nofather View Post
            Because Forsaken is meant to be its own game, even though first edition carried a lot of baggage. Klaives was just an artifact of Apocalypse terminology, didn't have anything to do with what they were in Forsaken. A fetish weapon is a fetish weapon. The same with the spirit ranks, gaffling and jaggling didn't fit into the First Tongue, which only went halfway in first edition in naming things. Second edition decided to get rid of the rest of the artifacts of Apocalypse and embrace its own setting fully.

            Stew mentioned it in the http://theonyxpath.com/ephemera-werewolf-the-forsaken/"]open development[/URL].
            This is a great answer for why so much terminology changed between WtF 1e and WtF 2e. As for WtA and WtF, the better question would be why so much terminology was shared in the first place, to which the answer boils down to "baggage the writers couldn't bring themselves to discard."


            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

            My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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            • #7
              Gaffling and Jaggling actually got adopted by Mage 2E.

              Which makes sense, since they already nicked Gnosis.

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              • #8
                I actually preferred the first edition mage terms for them. Squire, Knight, Baron, Count, etc.

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                • #9
                  They are also a thing, but more archaic.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                    This is a great answer for why so much terminology changed between WtF 1e and WtF 2e. As for WtA and WtF, the better question would be why so much terminology was shared in the first place, to which the answer boils down to "baggage the writers couldn't bring themselves to discard."
                    Seems like a pretty poor reason to me. It's a new game about werewolves broken into Tribes with five forms who can travel to spirit realm and use magical gifts learned by spirits. Seems to me like there are significant shared material than some arbitrary terminology. I mean, are we really shedding that much baggage by renaming forms?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post

                      Seems like a pretty poor reason to me. It's a new game about werewolves broken into Tribes with five forms who can travel to spirit realm and use magical gifts learned by spirits. Seems to me like there are significant shared material than some arbitrary terminology. I mean, are we really shedding that much baggage by renaming forms?
                      Any further shared material between the two games rise out of sharing inspirational sources; lycanthropy, animism and tribalism, etc. Remove even them, and it won't just be a game with a new take on animistic werewolves - it'd be a game not about animistic werewolves. So yeah, I'd say the baggage between the two games itself has been largely shed.

                      And even with the remaining terms, the concepts behind them are different enough that only the names are the same. WtA tribes are nations and cultures, hewing closer to what "tribe" means. WtF 2e tribes are more like shared philosophies on hunting, so it's an ideological tribe. WtA Gifts are, well, gifts given by spirits. They cover a lot of ground on what "spirit magic" can describe. WtF 2e Gifts are still "given" by spirits, but the reality is that the spirits are carving channels into your soul so that you can manifest your power in new ways through those scars. So they're no longer just "spirit magic," and are specifically tools of the hunt.

                      And the Spirit World... hoo boy. Remember how WtA is fond of its "Nature is Good" theme? Well, WtF reminds people that Mother Nature is Red in Tooth and Claw. Because when everything is alive, even herbivores must become predators to graze on the very much living and self-aware grass.


                      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
                        Seems like a pretty poor reason to me.
                        ...Come again? Them being two completely different games is a poor reason for them not to share the same terms?

                        Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
                        It's a new game about werewolves broken into Tribes with five forms who can travel to spirit realm and use magical gifts learned by spirits. Seems to me like there are significant shared material than some arbitrary terminology. I mean, are we really shedding that much baggage by renaming forms?
                        So, do you also have a problem with two movies about wars in space having different names for their lazer guns? How about different video games about cartoon animals jumping on platforms having different names for their collectables? Different fantasy adventure RPGs having different names for their various non-human races?


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                        • #13
                          A lot of it is switching from the garou language to First Tongue, which has a particular flavour because it's the language of spirits as well as forsaken. That's why the forms have different names, and 2E really doubled down on making sure all the in-game terms are in this "language".

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                          • #14
                            Yeah, as the linked open Dev article points out, Apocalypse's terms were kind of a hodgepodge of different lingistic origins, whereas Forsaken has a unified fictional language with consistent rules.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                              ...Come again? Them being two completely different games is a poor reason for them not to share the same terms?


                              So, do you also have a problem with two movies about wars in space having different names for their lazer guns? How about different video games about cartoon animals jumping on platforms having different names for their collectables? Different fantasy adventure RPGs having different names for their various non-human races?

                              My point being that the (somewhat condescending) answer "it's a different game" doesn't really hold when it's clearly a spiritual successor. Seems like most people in this thread want to suggest the games aren't really related apart from being about werewolves. I do not understand this. Never the less, I simply found it odd that they changed so much language compared to VtR(That's the one I'm most familiar with. I'm just catching up after being sick for quite a while). I was curious if there was something about WtA specifically they were trying to distance from or they just didn't like the old terms. I apologize if I touched a nerve of some sort. This is way more attention than I expected this dumb question to get.

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