Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WtF terminology

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post


    My point being that the (somewhat condescending) answer "it's a different game" doesn't really hold when it's clearly a spiritual successor. Seems like most people in this thread want to suggest the games aren't really related apart from being about werewolves. I do not understand this. Never the less, I simply found it odd that they changed so much language compared to VtR(That's the one I'm most familiar with. I'm just catching up after being sick for quite a while). I was curious if there was something about WtA specifically they were trying to distance from or they just didn't like the old terms. I apologize if I touched a nerve of some sort. This is way more attention than I expected this dumb question to get.
    I mean, this is a good point about it legitimately being a spiritual successor, and Vampire not changing as many terms (the Masquerade, Diablerie, Ventrue, Gangrel, etc.) as Werewolf did. I think it comes down to what Charlaquin said - the words in Werewolf: The Apocalypse come from various linguistic origins, whereas Werewolf: The Forsaken takes all of its language from a unified fictional language (The First Tongue) based on ancient Sumerian. It is still a spiritual successor in the case of the five forms and their connection to the spirit world, but the words had to change in order to fit the inclusion of the First Tongue.

    Comment


    • #17
      VtR was also the first of the nWoD gamelines based on a previous gameline. I'm pretty sure most terms would've been changed had they waited with doing VtR until after they had done WtF and MtAw.


      Bloodline: The Stygians

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post

        I mean, this is a good point about it legitimately being a spiritual successor, and Vampire not changing as many terms (the Masquerade, Diablerie, Ventrue, Gangrel, etc.) as Werewolf did. I think it comes down to what Charlaquin said - the words in Werewolf: The Apocalypse come from various linguistic origins, whereas Werewolf: The Forsaken takes all of its language from a unified fictional language (The First Tongue) based on ancient Sumerian. It is still a spiritual successor in the case of the five forms and their connection to the spirit world, but the words had to change in order to fit the inclusion of the First Tongue.

        See, I wish people would have just said that instead of "different game lulz"

        Comment


        • #19
          White Wolf was still feeling out boundaries while developing the first three gamelines in the Chronicles of Darkness (which were at least somewhat developed in tandem, though they came out staggered by years), knowing they were making a potentially alienating move by rebooting and reimagining their flagship World of Darkness universe. There was a lot of uncertainty at the time over how much to stretch their legs and push boundaries versus how much to stay safely recognizable to fans of the old gamelines, and you can kind of see, over the course of the first three games' development, the development teams gradually becoming more comfortable going further afield and trying to stake out the new games as beasts of their own, rather than new iterations of old properties.

          Requiem easily has the most retained glossary of concepts from its WoD predecessor, and it's a mixed bag of retentions that landed (Princes and the Embrace are terms whose flavor remains baked into the contemporary Requiem's identity) and those that didn't (I don't tend to see a lot of attention paid to the Bruja or Toreador bloodlines, despite clearly being appeals to popular Masquerade clans, and when's the last time somebody got called caitiff in a Requiem game?). Forsaken borrowed huge swaths of the conceptual formula of Apocalypse, despite painting over the lexicon with a bit of faux-Sumerian, to the point where the Forsaken Auspices break the Sumerian pattern by being the Apocalypse Auspices with a consonant shift (and a refocus of the Ragabash from trickster to stalker). By the time Awakening was rolling out, the CofD gamelines were stretching more, and (unlike earlier prototypes) it was no longer a game of chaos-stage-magicians fooling the universe, but a marriage of theosophy, gnosticism, and Indiana Jones pulp archaeology. Even then, there were relics of Ascension's design, like vulgar spell aspects. Appropriately, the next gameline after this was Promethean, the first time the CofD tried its hand at a gameline without a WoD predecessor (aside from a vague two-page conceptual sketch in a supplement for Ascension).

          There's legit argument to be made where the sweet spot is; had I my druthers, I'd personally probably hunt down some easter egg allusions to the WoD remaining in the current versions of the gamelines, but even I'd keep certain others. As the gamelines have fleshed out their own identities, they've left some behind, such as how the second edition of Awakening decided that vulgar spell aspects didn't serve what Awakening was doing as well as what Ascension did, and replaced their role in risk management with the new Reach mechanic. It's a whole lot easier to make these changes now in the 2010s, with the World of Darkness once again supported by new books of its own and the Chronicles of Darkness benefitting from a publishing history of its own to stake out how it differs more clearly, than back in 2004 when you only got one first impression to make with a single corebook out the gate.

          That's a long way of saying: the question isn't just why did Forsaken use new words for the same concepts, but also, why did Forsaken use so many of the same concepts in the first place? There were competing pressures in an uncertain balance, and perhaps, if Forsaken were being built from the ground up today rather than back then, it might not have been so analogous.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post


            See, I wish people would have just said that instead of "different game lulz"
            While I understand that the abrasive nature of the first bunch of responses was a bit too harsh, I think that "They're different games" is still the most accurate, complete answer. After all, why did they see fit to change the nature of werewolf language in Forsaken? Because it was a different game.


            "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
            Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
            He/him pronouns, please

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
              (I don't tend to see a lot of attention paid to the Bruja or Toreador bloodlines, despite clearly being appeals to popular Masquerade clans, and when's the last time somebody got called caitiff in a Requiem game?)
              I forgot that caitiff was even a term in Requiem. Also, I don't know if the Malkovian bloodline is even still a thing, or whether it has been totally replaced by the Malkavia disease and we're going to pretend like that bloodline doesn't exist, or whether they are connected in some way.

              Comment


              • #22
                Yeah. It's very different, it just draws upon some of the same folklore as Apocalypse, thus the five forms representative of the different kinds of werewolves seen across media and stories.

                Even tribe is different, as in Apocalypse it's more of a racial or ethnic identity while in Forsaken it's, going by definition, more of a union.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post

                  While I understand that the abrasive nature of the first bunch of responses was a bit too harsh, I think that "They're different games" is still the most accurate, complete answer. After all, why did they see fit to change the nature of werewolf language in Forsaken? Because it was a different game.
                  But see, that's not why it's different. They could have made werewolves in space who protect the galaxy for evil fruits and vegetables and kept the same terminology. Being a different game does not necessitate the use of different language.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post

                    But see, that's not why it's different. They could have made werewolves in space who protect the galaxy for evil fruits and vegetables and kept the same terminology. Being a different game does not necessitate the use of different language.
                    I mean, I think it does necessitate the use of a different language because of thematics, aesthetic, etc...but I see your point. Still, I think it had to be demonstrably different. I feel like part of it might also have been a reaction to the reaction to Requiem, where people were mad because it looked so much like Masquerade on the surface but wasn't.


                    "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
                    Check out my tumblr for Chronicles of Darkness-related musings
                    He/him pronouns, please

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
                      Being a different game does not necessitate the use of different language.
                      It does when the setting of the game is entirely different. When the themes are different.

                      Werewolves are part spirit of the hunt, as such, they use the First Tongue, based on some of the first language structures in the world. It's their shared language, so an English-speaking werewolf can talk to a Chinese-speaking werewolf, and there are shared terms in the First Tongue that can't be translated into others.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BigDamnHero View Post

                        I mean, I think it does necessitate the use of a different language because of thematics, aesthetic, etc...but I see your point. Still, I think it had to be demonstrably different. I feel like part of it might also have been a reaction to the reaction to Requiem, where people were mad because it looked so much like Masquerade on the surface but wasn't.
                        I can understand that, and I never complained about it mind you (Though I do miss Umbra. It's a cool word lol). I was just curious.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
                          My point being that the (somewhat condescending) answer "it's a different game" doesn't really hold when it's clearly a spiritual successor. Seems like most people in this thread want to suggest the games aren't really related apart from being about werewolves. I do not understand this. Never the less, I simply found it odd that they changed so much language compared to VtR(That's the one I'm most familiar with. I'm just catching up after being sick for quite a while). I was curious if there was something about WtA specifically they were trying to distance from or they just didn't like the old terms. I apologize if I touched a nerve of some sort. This is way more attention than I expected this dumb question to get.
                          I apologize if I came off as condescending. The idea of Chronicles of Darkness IPs just being updated versions of World of Darkness IPs is indeed a bit of a sore spot, I think, for the Chronicles of Darkness fan community as a whole.

                          The Chronicles of Darkness gamelines did start out as spiritual successors to their World of Darkness counterparts, in much the same way that Destiny was conceived as a spiritual successor to Halo. However, they were always meant to be their own games, in their own worlds. Requiem was certainly the closest to Masquerade, and frankly, it suffered quite a bit for that. Masqerade fans saw kind of familiar but not quite the same thing and wrote it off as "Masquerade Lite". As Chronicles of Darkness continued, it began to lean less and less on World of Darkness and began developing more of its own identity. And the more the Chronicles games stood on their own, the more successful they became. Apocalypse fans already have Apocalypse, so Forsaken is better served by being more distinct from Apocalypse, to appeal to different people.

                          The Second Editions have taken this a step further, discarding baggage from World of Darkness that doesn't serve Chronicles of Darkness, and strengthening their individual identities. In Forsaken's case in particular, part of this has been applying more consistent use of First Tongue, a fictional language based on Sumerian, and filtered backwards through Grimm's law to make it sound even older. In Forsaken, it makes more sense to call the true wolf form "Urhan", which roughly translates to "true wolf" in de-grimmified Sumerian, than to call it "Lupus", which comes from Latin, since unlike Sumerian, Latin has no special significance to the werewolves of Forsaken's setting.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                            The Second Editions have taken this a step further, discarding baggage from World of Darkness that doesn't serve Chronicles of Darkness, and strengthening their individual identities. In Forsaken's case in particular, part of this has been applying more consistent use of First Tongue, a fictional language based on Sumerian, and filtered backwards through Grimm's law to make it sound even older. In Forsaken, it makes more sense to call the true wolf form "Urhan", which roughly translates to "true wolf" in de-grimmified Sumerian, than to call it "Lupus", which comes from Latin, since unlike Sumerian, Latin has no special significance to the werewolves of Forsaken's setting.
                            To be slightly more constructive, I assume Sumerian was chosen because of the age of the language? Note: I wasn't aware the first tongue was based on Sumerian (My Sumerian is a bit rusty ). I assumed it was just a made up language. That does make it much more interesting to me.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The age, yes. It's roughly approximated Sumerian run through a reversal of the consonant shift described by Grimm's Law, where sounds shifted from use in Proto-Indo-European morphemes into use in later Proto-Germanic morphemes. In other words, if pronunciations of words inherited from one of our oldest identified Eurasian language families acquired certain qualities as time passed and the languages spread and were adapted, then First Tongue is an imagined version of an even older language which is to Proto-Indo-European what PIE is to Proto-Germanic, as expressed by having even fewer of those later-developed qualities. The implication being that ancient humans, in a time before the Sundering, may have heard the intrinsic language of the spirits and used it to inform their development of human languages.

                              Caveat: This is a terrible oversimplifcation and I don't know real linguistics for shit, so I'm sure at least one aspect of my explanation is flat out wrong. It is, however, close enough for government work.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Part of the problem was that nWoD was actively trying to replace cWoD instead of just being its own thing when it was first released. That was actually the line of thought. Nowadays, the line of thought is "CofD is its own thing" which has kind of been the jam since about 2011 and the release of the 20th anniversary editions. But there was actively a time in the 2000s when the line of thinking was that "old World of Darkness is gone, new World of Darkness is here, you're dumb and stupid for still playing the old one" so a lot of people are still thinking that even though it has not been the case for the past six years.

                                So I can understand why you made the mistake.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X