Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WtF terminology

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
    I also felt like people were being needlessly condescending when I was really just trying to understand something.
    Yeah, I kinda got that vibe a bit too.

    Originally posted by Incendax View Post
    Sometimes we resist that change even when making the change would be good! (I'm looking at you, US Imperial, and QWERTY Keyboards).

    So changing comfortable and familiar terms just to make your product different? That's not a good reason. Some of the changes are downright silly -- take Potence/Fortitude being changed to Vigor/Resilience in Vampire, for example.
    Speaking as an American, I'm with you on the imperial system being all kinds of obsolete and janky.

    Vigor and Resilience I like, though. The word "Resilience" connotes to me a more physical kind of resistance than "Fortitude," and since CofD 1e used the cardinal virtues as game traits, it would have posed confusing overlap. (Some glossary overlap is okay, so it's a judgment call; it's pretty fine for a Haunt to be both a secondary nickname for a vampire clan and a name for a type of power granted by a geist, in my eyes. But it rankles me that, say, a Beast is now one large character type and a major subset of another large character type.) As for Vigor, it may not be the best possible word to choose, but it's not deficient, Blood Potency is right over there, and "Potence" has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me as a very awkward verbal construct, both in general and specifically for the name of a vampire's horrific strength.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
      As for Vigor, it may not be the best possible word to choose, but it's not deficient, Blood Potency is right over there, and "Potence" has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me as a very awkward verbal construct, both in general and specifically for the name of a vampire's horrific strength.
      Oh, right, "Blood Potency." Ha. There you go.

      Comment


      • #63
        Presence basically got ripped in half to form Majesty and Nightmare.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
          and since CofD 1e used the cardinal virtues as game traits, it would have posed confusing overlap. (Some glossary overlap is okay, so it's a judgment call; it's pretty fine for a Haunt to be both a secondary nickname for a vampire clan and a name for a type of power granted by a geist, in my eyes. But it rankles me that, say, a Beast is now one large character type and a major subset of another large character type.) As for Vigor, it may not be the best possible word to choose, but it's not deficient, Blood Potency is right over there, and "Potence" has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me as a very awkward verbal construct, both in general and specifically for the name of a vampire's horrific strength.
          For every word that got changed because something else was similar (Fortitude as a Virtue, Blood Potency as a Trait, etc) they could have just changed the less familiar word instead of the more familiar word. It certainly would have caused a lot less confusion. But what's done is done, and we're 12 years into the new terminology.

          I just have to hope they don't change it again. =P

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
            Presence basically got ripped in half to form Majesty and Nightmare.
            I mean, sort of. Nightmare is really its own bag of tricks, and absorbed Dread Gaze. Majesty is really Presence's spiritual successor.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
              I said being a different game doesn't mean you need your own names for things. Which is to say different games can share terminology. I also said I wasn't complaining that they had different names terminology.
              I got that you didn't explicitly say this, it just seemed like you were coming into things with it, especially in the post where you . I was explaining why your posts seemed argumentative, especially in the post where you boiled down all of Forsaken to three or four things it has in common to Apocalypse.

              Originally posted by MegaZarak View Post
              Seems like a pretty poor reason to me. It's a new game about werewolves broken into Tribes with five forms who can travel to spirit realm and use magical gifts learned by spirits. Seems to me like there are significant shared material than some arbitrary terminology. I mean, are we really shedding that much baggage by renaming forms?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                Same reason companies spend millions of dollars determining what is 'intuitive and ergonomic' design. It's good business for your products to have a measure of the familiar so they can quickly and intuitively use the product. Same reason why movies that tread the same old stories, just with a new twist, consistent pull in more money at the box office than most 'completely new and innovative' movies. Same reason that, when you buy a new car, you can easily find most of the things you need to drive it immediately.
                If this is so clearly the more intuitive choice, then why isn't it more common for spiritual successors to keep language from their spiritual predecessors? Why do we use Blood Stones in Bloodborne instead of Titanite? Why do we have Pulse Rifles in Destiny instead of Battle Rifles? I would argue that it is more intuitive that a spiritual successor change its language, so as to avoid confusion with its spiritual predecessor. That we are even having this conversation is a result of the very poor decision to name the spiritual successor to World of Darkness, "World of Darkness", and to recycle a tremendous amount of terminology from its predecessor. If it had been called something else from the beginning, and Requiem hadn't leaned so heavily on Masquerade's linguistic structure, I doubt anyone would have questioned the fact that werewolves in this not-Apocalypse game have different words for things than werewolves in Apocalypse do.

                Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                So changing comfortable and familiar terms just to make your product different? That's not a good reason. Some of the changes are downright silly -- take Potence/Fortitude being changed to Vigor/Resilience in Vampire, for example.
                I think it was far sillier that they kept so many Discipline names (and honestly, even to call the powers Disciplines) than it was to change the ones that they did. And sillier than that to keep the name World of Darkness.

                Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                But I can totally get behind changing the terminology from a hodgepodge, into something that is consistent and representative of First Tongue -- assuming they don't change everything again in some later edition.
                I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. "It's a new edition" isn't a good reason to change terms (though making the terms more consistent with the setting's linguistic rules is, and a new edition is a good time to do so.) That's not what I'm talking about, because Forsaken is not a new edition of Apocalypse. It is a completely separate IP, which happens to be a spiritual successor to Apocalypse, so the expectation that it not use different names for similar concepts is bizarre to me.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                  For every word that got changed because something else was similar (Fortitude as a Virtue, Blood Potency as a Trait, etc) they could have just changed the less familiar word instead of the more familiar word. It certainly would have caused a lot less confusion. But what's done is done, and we're 12 years into the new terminology.

                  I just have to hope they don't change it again. =P
                  Not Fortitude, as they were doing a 7 deadly sins/7 heavenly virtues thing, and that has more history behind it than the name of a Disciplinev from Masquerade.


                  Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                  My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    This thread is making me think about what other terms could be changed to differentiate the game more with its predecessor.
                    I am wondering what name i would use for gangrel, nosferatu and ventrue (to be fair i think both gangrel and nosferatu embody perfectly the archetype, with ventrue as the one i would change tho for what i have no idea)
                    I'm already using the term Strain instead of clans tho its considered a more modern parlance with elder vampire still using the term clans.

                    Anyway this thread has provided me with ample food for thought.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      That we are even having this conversation is a result of the very poor decision to name the spiritual successor to World of Darkness, "World of Darkness", and to recycle a tremendous amount of terminology from its predecessor. If it had been called something else from the beginning, and Requiem hadn't leaned so heavily on Masquerade's linguistic structure, I doubt anyone would have questioned the fact that werewolves in this not-Apocalypse game have different words for things than werewolves in Apocalypse do.


                      I think it was far sillier that they kept so many Discipline names (and honestly, even to call the powers Disciplines) than it was to change the ones that they did. And sillier than that to keep the name World of Darkness.
                      And again, this is because the original plan was to replace the old World of Darkness, and not to create a whole new intellectual property that was to stand on its own. That general idea did not really come about until 2011, seven years after the initial release. Which is why I think it's important to address the reasons names were changed, and not just "it's a different game."

                      EDIT: of course, the fact that they wanted to replace the old World of Darkness from the beginning instead of just continuing it and creating a whole new IP was a silly decision, and I completely agree with that. But it wasn't like they were just creating a whole new IP from the beginning and, weirdly, enough, keeping the names.
                      Last edited by RomulusGloriosus; 03-17-2017, 02:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                        This thread is making me think about what other terms could be changed to differentiate the game more with its predecessor.
                        I am wondering what name i would use for gangrel, nosferatu and ventrue (to be fair i think both gangrel and nosferatu embody perfectly the archetype, with ventrue as the one i would change tho for what i have no idea)
                        I'm already using the term Strain instead of clans tho its considered a more modern parlance with elder vampire still using the term clans.

                        Anyway this thread has provided me with ample food for thought.
                        The Nosferatu clanbook already retroengineers an alternate, less cinematic root for the clan name, Nosphoros, as does the Ventrue clanbook, suggesting it derived later from the simpler Ven. "Ven" has the extra benefit of being catchy and brief. Rolls off the tongue. Renaming the Gangrel is more of an open project, but there's countless old folklore of shapeshifters and hungry ghosts to pick from.

                        The Gauntlet is a WoDism that I've never felt sits right for its role in either Forsaken or Awakening. I'd probably favor some name with more of a connotation of being an action or transition than a place or obstacle, a fading into Shadow. A higher Gauntlet rating could be spoken of as a place that fades slower.

                        Maeljin stands out deliberately in Forsaken; it breaks the tone of First Tongue because it's meant to sound disruptive and out of place, because it doesn't belong. The easter egg value of the WoDism is thus also deliberate: the Lords of the Wounds are so unnatural, they don't even have a name from the "right" world. I mostly don't like it because it sounds silly and is too obviously constructed: it wears the etymology of Bad Guys on its sleeve.

                        The gamelines from Promethean onward are generally more circumspect and deliberate about the use of WoD callback nomenclature, either reusing more general terms which are natural fits even without the background, or evoking deliberate callbacks in places where they're not obtrusive to the eye. There are a lot of inherited terms that are doing just fine where they are in Requiem: childer, neonates, elders, the Embrace, bloodlines, Kindred, Final Death, frenzy, torpor, all "if it ain't broke don't fix it" cases in my eyes.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post
                          This thread is making me think about what other terms could be changed to differentiate the game more with its predecessor.
                          I am wondering what name i would use for gangrel, nosferatu and ventrue (to be fair i think both gangrel and nosferatu embody perfectly the archetype, with ventrue as the one i would change tho for what i have no idea)
                          I'm already using the term Strain instead of clans tho its considered a more modern parlance with elder vampire still using the term clans.

                          Anyway this thread has provided me with ample food for thought.
                          You could call Ventrue Julii and Nosferatu Orlochs.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                            The Gauntlet is a WoDism that I've never felt sits right for its role in either Forsaken or Awakening. I'd probably favor some name with more of a connotation of being an action or transition than a place or obstacle, a fading into Shadow. A higher Gauntlet rating could be spoken of as a place that fades slower.
                            There's another WoD term that I think fits better for the Gauntlet as a concept in Forsaken/Awakening - "the periphery." The idea that the border between the Spirit World and the Material World is just out of the corner of your eye.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post

                              And again, this is because the original plan was to replace the old World of Darkness, and not to create a whole new intellectual property that was to stand on its own. That general idea did not really come about until 2011, seven years after the initial release. Which is why I think it's important to address the reasons names were changed, and not just "it's a different game."

                              EDIT: of course, the fact that they wanted to replace the old World of Darkness from the beginning instead of just continuing it and creating a whole new IP was a silly decision, and I completely agree with that. But it wasn't like they were just creating a whole new IP from the beginning and, weirdly, enough, keeping the names.
                              As I said earlier in the thread, the fact that nWoD was replacing oWoD does not contradict the fact that it is and was a separate IP. If they had meant for it to be the same IP, they could easily have made a new edition of oWoD. The fact that nWoD was replacing oWoD did, however, mean that they didn't think they would have to worry about brand confusion, which along with the desire to appeal to oWoD fans no doubt lead to the decision to keep many terms the same, particularly in Requiem. In no way does this mean keeping the same names should have been the expected default.

                              And it's not like this is the first time a spiritual successor has been conceived as a replacement for its spiritual predecessor. There's a reason I keep bringing up Halo and Destiny, because their relationship is very closely analogous.There's even a similar amount of shared ground between Halo and Destiny as there is between nWoD and oWoD. The Guardians are basically Spartans, the Ghost is basically Cortana, the Fallen are basically the Covenant, the Hive are basically the Flood, the Cabal are basically the Brutes, the Vex are basically the Prometheans. No one complained that so much terminology was changed between Halo and Destiny, despite Bungie having planned to conclude Halo after 3 and focus entirely on their new IP.
                              Last edited by Charlaquin; 03-17-2017, 04:16 PM.


                              Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                              My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                You could call Ventrue Julii and Nosferatu Orlochs.
                                I love my precious Julii babies so much, they are my darling sweet decadent evil Roman patricians, but damn do I really think their name kind of sucks. It kind of limits all of the Roman aristocracy - many many families - down to one influential family. I get that they are the descendants of one Aulus Julius Senex, born of the Julii, but I would have preferred "Lares" being their name, which is used extensively for them as is, over Julii.

                                That's sort of off topic but while we're complaining about terminology....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X