Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

WtF terminology

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post

    I love my precious Julii babies so much, they are my darling sweet decadent evil Roman patricians, but damn do I really think their name kind of sucks. It kind of limits all of the Roman aristocracy - many many families - down to one influential family. I get that they are the descendants of one Aulus Julius Senex, born of the Julii, but I would have preferred "Lares" being their name, which is used extensively for them as is, over Julii.

    That's sort of off topic but while we're complaining about terminology....
    Ooh i like the term Lares. (If i remember right its used in the ventrue clanbook?) I think i'll use that.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Maitrecorbo View Post

      Ooh i like the term Lares. (If i remember right its used in the ventrue clanbook?) I think i'll use that.
      It's used both in the Ventrue Clanbook and in Requiem for Rome, if I recall correctly. The Julii are given the credit of inventing the Masquerade (I mean, everybody is given the credit of inventing the Masquerade at some point or another) because they would disguise themselves as Household Gods, the spirits of ancient family ancestors, and dwell in the crypts and dark places of the domus commanding their descendants and leading their families to glory. The thing is, every Roman family believed in the Lares, and it would make perfect sense for there to be Lares of the Junii, and the Cornelii, and the Claudii, and so on, and should be, and these old Lares and their childer should be sitting in the Senex constantly attacking one another over unsettled grievances from two hundred years ago.

      Mage 2e complicates this by making Lares into the name for Rank 3+ ghosts, though (which does fit because Lares really should be ghosts, not vampires) but it has been used for them before and it makes a heck of a lot of sense as an overarching term.

      Comment


      • #78
        As for changing the name of the gauntlet, would 'the frontier' work? I dont know how to translate it in the first tongue.

        Comment


        • #79
          The First Tongue word for the Gauntlet is Zathu.

          Frontier doesn't really fit, since it's more of a wall. If you were going for Frontier, you may as well use the old term, Border Marches. Gauntlet doesn't fit for that matter, either, except in the 'throw down the Gauntlet' in case Urfarah meant something else.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by nofather View Post
            The First Tongue word for the Gauntlet is Zathu.
            You know what would be a good replacement word for Gauntlet? ...Zathu. Just call it the Zathu. "The Zathu is the barrier between the spirit and the material worlds."

            If we must call a Rabbit a Smeerp, we might as well call it a Smeerp than a Gopher.

            Comment


            • #81
              Except most things in First Tongue has a translation that is used by groups that don't speak First Tongue. For example mages would still require a word for the Gauntlet and I doubt they'd care enough to learn the native word for it.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                Except most things in First Tongue has a translation that is used by groups that don't speak First Tongue. For example mages would still require a word for the Gauntlet and I doubt they'd care enough to learn the native word for it.
                Ah, yes, Mages. How about the membrana? The Gauntlet is kind of the "skin" of the spirit world, as it were. I mean, I'm still going to keep using Gauntlet because Gauntlet has been the term for over a decade now, but it's a pretty feasible alternative.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                  The Gauntlet is a WoDism that I've never felt sits right for its role in either Forsaken or Awakening. I'd probably favor some name with more of a connotation of being an action or transition than a place or obstacle,
                  I mean, that is what Gauntlet means. It's a trial, as in "running the gauntlet". But yeah, I do agree that it's a less than ideal term for what it is in CofD. Membrana does sound pretty awesome!


                  Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                  My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                  Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    So it's not the Gauntlet that needs to be renamed, but the verbs used with it. We don't cross the Gauntlet, or reach/breach through it. We run the Gauntlet.

                    I do agree on the Border Marches, or simply the Border being a nice replacement term for the Gauntlet.


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      If this is so clearly the more intuitive choice, then why isn't it more common for spiritual successors to keep language from their spiritual predecessors?
                      It is common. For every exception you can name, I can name five or more times where they do keep the same names. Just look a ubiquitous terms like Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Even across game systems that have nothing in common we see many of those terms come up. Sometimes we get slight variations like Might or Endurance, but there is an overwhelming frequency of familiar terms across an enormous number of mediums.
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      I would argue that it is more intuitive that a spiritual successor change its language, so as to avoid confusion with its spiritual predecessor.
                      I would respectfully argue that you're wrong, for the same reasons we have already discussed. Why are car key holes on the right of the steering column instead of somewhere else because it's a different model? Why do genre movies employ similar tropes instead of avoiding those tropes entirely because they are a different movie? Why do different medical supply companies overwhelmingly put their information stickers on the same place instead of a different place because they are a different company? (going back to the game comparison) Why do countless games use similar user interfaces with only mild variation from one user interface to the other? Why do they make ESC open up an options menu? They are different games! Surely they want to differentiate themselves from other games, right?

                      Okay, that was super rhetorical. But hopefully you see where I'm going with this.
                      (Though, once again, this is all 12 year old water under the bridge at this point)
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      That we are even having this conversation is a result of the very poor decision to name the spiritual successor to World of Darkness, "World of Darkness", and to recycle a tremendous amount of terminology from its predecessor. If it had been called something else from the beginning, and Requiem hadn't leaned so heavily on Masquerade's linguistic structure, I doubt anyone would have questioned the fact that werewolves in this not-Apocalypse game have different words for things than werewolves in Apocalypse do.
                      You're probably right, to a certain degree. We definitely would have questioned it less if it resembled the previous game less. The fewer similarities, the fewer memory triggers, and the fewer breaks from immersion that result from those memory triggers.
                      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                      Not Fortitude, as they were doing a 7 deadly sins/7 heavenly virtues thing, and that has more history behind it than the name of a Disciplinev from Masquerade.
                      That's a fair justification. I can get behind that.
                      Last edited by Incendax; 03-17-2017, 10:19 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        You're conflating practices that has become tropes or even standards with terminology that is not actually common. Those are not the same thing. Your argument would hold a lot more water if for example Potence was a common name for strength/damage-increasing supernatural powers. I wouldn't be surprised if VtM wasn't alone in using the term Potence that way, but it's far from common.
                        The reason Strength can be reused is because its common usage in RPGs makes it convenient to use for people who are familiar with RPGs at large. The reason you wouldn't want to reuse Potence is because that convenience only applies to VtM fans, and because that convenience would come with the drawback of VtR having less of an identity of its own.

                        Edit: I realize Potence specifically might be a bad example since it might've had a different reason for being changed.
                        Last edited by Tessie; 03-17-2017, 10:17 PM.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          You're conflating practices that has become tropes or even standards with terminology that is not actually common.
                          You have to let them survive long enough to become standards. But alas, their life was cut short!
                          Dramatic and humorous theatre pose.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            There's a difference between sharing terms between products of the same genre/platform, and reusing terms from a spiritual predecessor in an attempt to connect the newborn product to the older one.

                            The former is a nigh universal practice, used as part of a greater culture. The latter is common, but often eschewed in favor of alerting the users that the new game inherits only a part from its ancestors.

                            It just happened that nWoD prioritized connection to WoD in its beginnings, and then shifted priorities to fleshing out a comparably similar yet clearly separate identity. This change in priority was complete by most of the 1st edition games were out, so the 2nd editions saw a full turn away from it's distant lineage.


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Incendax View Post
                              You have to let them survive long enough to become standards. But alas, their life was cut short!
                              Dramatic and humorous theatre pose.
                              Somehow, I don't feel that terms intended to identigy specific setting elements of a series (Gauntlet, Umbra, Disciplines, etc) will be elevated to a standard no matter how long it survives, compared to terms intended to evoke verisimilitude (Strength, Dexterity, Items, etc)


                              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                                Except most things in First Tongue has a translation that is used by groups that don't speak First Tongue. For example mages would still require a word for the Gauntlet and I doubt they'd care enough to learn the native word for it.
                                According to Mage 2nd edition, mages don't use First Tongue because they sound foreign and the spirits take insult from it. Strangely (strange, as in, I would have thought spirits would like ages to at least try and communicate with them in their own language), spirits prefer mages to use their own terms for things rather than get them wrong.
                                Last edited by Bunyip; 03-17-2017, 11:41 PM.


                                Writes stuff. Sometimes you like it.
                                WoD | Changing Breeds, Umbra, Book of the Wyrm, Shattered Dreams CofD | Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd ed, Idigam Anthology, The Pack, Demon Storyteller's Guide, Hurt Locker, Dark Eras Companion, Beast Player's Guide, Deviant: The Renegades
                                The Trinity Continuum | ├ćon

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X