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[Dark Eras] Wolf and Raven - All Father vs Mother Wolf

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  • [Dark Eras] Wolf and Raven - All Father vs Mother Wolf

    Back in 1E Blasphemies source book there was equating of Father Wolf with Norse All Father, i.e. Odin, as creator of werewolves race. Basically, suplement implied that Uratha would worship Odin as human form of Father Wolf. BUT, in my games, I want to go with 2E interpretations that Urfarah is assigned male or female forms in local legends. In Norse mythology we have Mani, male lunar god, so I implied that local version of Urfarah would be Mother of Wolves, giantess called Angerboda.

    There we have some problems with Valkyrie Mot (Lodge) from Blasphemies that was all female Uratha sisterhood serving All Father. In 1E setting they were simply serving both Odin AND Father Wolf, as they were the same person. But in 2E, we have clash that we have Mother of Wolves being other being than Odin - more to it, Angerboda is shown in Norse myths as semi-antagonistic to Odin. Only Loki have good - too good one would say - relations with her.

    So how would you solve mythological problem of Valkyrie Mot following Odin? Maybe just makes Valkyries serving Odin to appease the Norse gods with Uratha actions, even if Mother of Wolves is generally scorned figure in their tales?


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  • #2
    If the Blood Talons had no qualms about honoring Odin and Tyr, despite the obvious and immediate antagonism with their Firstborn, I'd say these guys would have even lesser objections.

    The gods of the Shadow wear many masks, and humans aren't exactly noted for their accuracy in history and lore-keeping. The Uratha will likely shrug off inconsistencies with the human mythos and go on worshipping Urfarah and their totems alike.


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    • #3
      Odin is known for transgressing Norse gender boundaries anyway - he does magic, which was a distinctly feminine thing. And Norse mythology has a lot of spectrum-sliding among the Gods. I imagine it's too late in your Chronicle to switch Urfarah back to Odin, but for future reference and for others who might want to run Wolf and Raven, there's really no reason Odin can't be both Father and Mother Wolf.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
        I imagine it's too late in your Chronicle to switch Urfarah back to Odin, but for future reference and for others who might want to run Wolf and Raven, there's really no reason Odin can't be both Father and Mother Wolf.
        I did not start game, just preparing to it, in few weeks, so can tweak some things. Still, in Wolf and Raven there is whole Ergi and male homosexuality taboo in Norse culture.

        In myths - based on Nail Gaiman's Norse Mythology I read - Odin sounds more like 'he went over the taboo to gain needed knowledge of magic', not returning to it, as it was too scary for him. He does not sound as going over romance with Mani based on his homosexuality and becoming (trans - species?) she wolf to raise cubs - it was to much taboo, even for him. Still, Odin is equated with Wolves and it was very fitting connotation to the 1E material as Father Wolf with All Father.

        Loki become mare and born Sleipnir, but it was implied it was grave insult even for him to imply this - and he made this only to save gods and his own head. So even most treacherous of gods was not proud for changing sex and baring other species as female.

        And making Odin Wolf Mother would imply that Fenris is his child, not Angerboda's. His and Loki's, his brother. It starts even more convulent then to many Norse myths...

        On the other hand - Uratha have their shapechanging and sexchanging power ( I point to you, Luna's Embrace Gift ), so maybe in their own lore their would be MUCH less strict than their human cousins? But then what to do with Uratha hunting those with Ergi, like proposed by my Get of Fenris Lodge? If we went with Odin become she wolf in their myths, then male homosexuality would be much more appreciated by those werewolves following Odin,
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-21-2017, 12:46 PM.


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        • #5
          And most important - Odin is 'alive' in Norse myths, i.e. for Norse culture and people in Dark Era. That means he cannot be dead-dead like Urfarah is in Werewolf setting.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-21-2017, 01:29 PM.


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          • #6
            I mean, Odin has died before. Perhaps the Norse Werewolves believe that Urfarah only changed and grew wiser, shedding his (or her) previous, weakened body by being sacrificed by his own children.

            EDIT: Remember that the Forsaken believe that Urfarah was a spirit, not a Pangaean. And spirits usually come back eventually unless they are drained of essence as well as corpus. This doesn't have to be true, they just have to believe it's true.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post
              I mean, Odin has died before. Perhaps the Norse Werewolves believe that Urfarah only changed and grew wiser, shedding his (or her) previous, weakened body by being sacrificed by his own children.

              EDIT: Remember that the Forsaken believe that Urfarah was a spirit, not a Pangaean. And spirits usually come back eventually unless they are drained of essence as well as corpus. This doesn't have to be true, they just have to believe it's true.
              Whole Forsaken vs Pure conflict has any sense if death of Urfarah is definitive. If it would be 'Oh his Odin, he will return in year or two' it's really cheapens Tribes split. Pure then do not have real reason to hate Forsaken - Tribes of Moon can simply say 'He was killed to reset World, just wait and he be back.'
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-22-2017, 04:02 AM.


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              • #8
                Seeing how many problems Urfarah = Odin bring, I think I will stick to my tale of Anderboda as Mother of Wolves. Odin antagonist relations to Uratha I will solve as I did with Valkyrie Mot write-up: That Mani, as one of gods, petitioned Aesir to forgive Uratha killing of their parent - only they werewolves need to serve gods and fight Jotun. And, of course, Odin was first to see this as wise. It does not mean he forget Forsaken original sin.
                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-22-2017, 04:04 AM.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                  Whole Forsaken vs Pure conflict has any sense if death of Urfarah is definitive. If it would be 'Oh his Odin, he will return in year or two' it's really cheapens Tribes split. Pure then do not have real reasona to have Forsaken - Tribes of Moon can Simplus say 'He was killed to reset World, just wait and he be back.'
                  You don't have to use it, but if it were me using it, I'd say that the Tribes of the Moon could simply say "don't worry, he'll be back, we did what we had to do to make him stronger and reset the world" and the Pure could say "oh my god you people are the worst, he's not coming back because you killed him you awful sons of bitches."

                  It really does, to some extent, fit into the central conflict of the Tribes of the Moon vs. The Pure. The Moon Tribes believe they did what they had to do, and The Pure think it unjustifiable. Very few, if any, Vikings ever actually met Odin in person, so as long as Urfarah never actually appears in game, the Moon Tribes can go on believing that Odin/Urfarah lives in Asgard now, which isn't easily accessible, and the Pure can go on believing that he/she is well and truly dead and the Forsaken are to blame.

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                  • #10
                    For the record, I actually like your idea of the Mother of Wolves and Mani. I think it's very cool. I'm just offering a way to make Odin fit if you still wanted that.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Whole Forsaken vs Pure conflict has any sense if death of Urfarah is definitive. If it would be 'Oh his Odin, he will return in year or two' it's really cheapens Tribes split. Pure then do not have real reasona to have Forsaken - Tribes of Moon can Simplus say 'He was killed to reset World, just wait and he be back.'
                      Actually there are factions of the Pure trying to bring Urfarah back and believe it's possible. While the basis of the divide is over the destruction of their progenitor, their current outlook is how they should do things, with the Forsaken working on continuing his legacy for the most part, and the Pure trying to bring Pangaea back, or at least their dominant place in the world.

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                      • #12
                        I think we can have Mani and Mother of Wolves as main pair and still have Odin as All Father. Truth is Uratha are half humans, half spirits. All Father is creator of human race and it's 'father'. So Odin is still like 'godfather' of every Uratha, just because they are half-Flesh.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          I think we can have Mani and Mother of Wolves as main pair and still have Odin as All Father. Truth is Uratha are half humans, half spirits. All Father is creator of human race and it's 'father'. So Odin is still like 'godfather' of every Uratha, just because they are half-Flesh.
                          Oh, but of course. Odin is above spirit and flesh.

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                          • #14
                            If you want to avoid mythological snafus you could always create a new Titan to be the mother of wolves, one the mortals have no knowledge of (and it better stay that way, the herd must not know). You could still have her truly dead at the claws of the Forsaken, then declare the Forsaken to be the wolves who sided with their father god, while the Pure aligned with the Titans against the gods.
                            You could even tie her death and the fall of Pangea to the Gods overthrowing the Titans.

                            ​This would of course make the Pure work for the cause of Ragnarok.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                              If you want to avoid mythological snafus you could always create a new Titan to be the mother of wolves, one the mortals have no knowledge of (and it better stay that way, the herd must not know). You could still have her truly dead at the claws of the Forsaken, then declare the Forsaken to be the wolves who sided with their father god, while the Pure aligned with the Titans against the gods.
                              You could even tie her death and the fall of Pangea to the Gods overthrowing the Titans.
                              It's exactly what I did - I just used Angerboda name as she is confirmed mother of Fenris and that she is met in rather small numer of myths - great used for reinterpretation for RPG setting there.

                              Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                              ​This would of course make the Pure work for the cause of Ragnarok.
                              It's pointed in Wolf and Raven Dark Era, in Pure section:

                              Originally posted by Wolf and Raven
                              Though eons have passed, the Anshega will never forget Pangaea. The Sundering brought them low and triggered the ascent of humanity, but the Pure will claw their way back on high over heaps of bone and blood. They’ve heard the tales of Ragnarök, calling it the Sundering of the Gods, and know that humanity will be cast back to its natural state: cowering before spirits and the Anshega. The Hateful Wolf will consume Luna, and those Urdaga who have not yet abandoned her will be put down like the tamed pets they are.


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