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[2E] Spirit-Ridden questions - Urged, Claimed and Spirit-Thieves

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  • [2E] Spirit-Ridden questions - Urged, Claimed and Spirit-Thieves

    If Urged or Claimed is physically killed – What is result for the spirit inside - it dies final death with physical shell? It hangs over in Twilight? Or it becomes discorporate and goes into Shadow Realm to reform, just like you destroy Corpus of normal spirit?


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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  • #2
    Traditionally a Claiming spirit is ejected, finding itself in Twilight but disoriented. Urging spirit just loses its Fetter, like it used the Unfetter Manifestation.
    Last edited by nofather; 04-12-2017, 02:56 PM.

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    • #3
      However, spirits in a Hive-Claimed host are destroyed with their fleshy half.


      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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      • #4
        I was always kind of confused by the usage of the word "permanent" when it came to the Claimed. I always thought that meant nothing short of Archmastery could separate a claimed from its host, and that death of the Claimed meant destruction of the spirit.

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        • #5
          It's permanent in that it's nothing the spirit has to keep doing. They don't have to keep paying for upkeep and, if they miss an Essence, they get booted out, like with many of the Manifestations.

          The spirit can leave at any time, though it doesn't usually want to, and will resist it. It says this in the Manifestation, p191, 'Claim is permanent in living hosts unless the spirit decides to detach itself, rolling its original Power + Finesse penalized by its own Rank and contested by the Claimed host’s Resolve + Composure — including any dots gained from being Claimed.' In the original Predators, 'If the merging is complete, the possessing spirit may leave as per above, but the mount has been too changed to survive the transition. If the mount dies, the spirit is instantly released, but the trauma of death leaves it weakened and disoriented, in addition to any damage it received trying to keep the body alive.'

          It's likely because death isn't really a thing that happens to spirits.

          I suppose using Mage's 'Indefinite' may have been more literally accurate but probably would have raised more questions.
          Last edited by nofather; 04-12-2017, 10:07 PM.

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          • #6
            Thanks, that's good to know! I have an ST who told me that Claimed is wholly irreversible.

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            • #7
              No problem.

              If the spirit leaves while the host is alive, through an exorcism for instance, the human still survives as well. From the same section of the core, p191, 'Former hosts are physically and mentally scarred — their physical appearance changes back at the same rate it mutated and the extra Attribute dots fade at a rate of two per day. The Essence trait and any Dread Powers the Claimed developed immediately vanish.'

              Probably not a good life until you've had a lot of therapy, but it's an option.

              That's by the rules, though, it's entirely valid to have the thing be permanent and irreversible as a homebrew, it's not that extreme a change but it seems like one the ST should let the players know about.
              Last edited by nofather; 04-12-2017, 10:47 PM.

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              • #8
                Sooo... Storm Lords are not killing their Sacred Prey? If by default you can exorcism spirit from Spirit-Ridden, it sounds as favorable way.

                And how then Ridden are different from Spirits then? Cause it sounds like Bone Shadows doing exactly the same thing as Storm Lords then...


                My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                LGBT+ in CoD games

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by nofather View Post
                  Traditionally a Claiming spirit is ejected, finding itself in Twilight but disoriented. Urging spirit just loses its Fetter, like it used the Unfetter Manifestation.
                  Ejection happens on Urged, Claimed, who are a flesh and spirit union perish on death entirely. Another reason why high rank spirits don't take that gamble.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    Ejection happens on Urged, Claimed, who are a flesh and spirit union perish on death entirely. Another reason why high rank spirits don't take that gamble.
                    You can see the quote that says otherwise, can you share where you're getting the idea that a Claiming spirit dies?

                    And Urged aren't really ejected because it's not necessarily inside the target to begin with, they're just Fettered to it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Sooo... Storm Lords are not killing their Sacred Prey? If by default you can exorcism spirit from Spirit-Ridden, it sounds as favorable way.

                      And how then Ridden are different from Spirits then? Cause it sounds like Bone Shadows doing exactly the same thing as Storm Lords then...
                      I think the equation changes during the siskur-dah... I could be wrong. It could also maybe be a situation where you are harming the flesh and the corpus simultaneously, so the spirit is ejected after killing the claimed only if the spirit still has corpus remaining, but you could very well just end up slaughtering the entity(s) wholesale depending on the number of boxes the physical and spiritual forms have? I dunno.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                        I think the equation changes during the siskur-dah... I could be wrong. It could also maybe be a situation where you are harming the flesh and the corpus simultaneously, so the spirit is ejected after killing the claimed only if the spirit still has corpus remaining, but you could very well just end up slaughtering the entity(s) wholesale depending on the number of boxes the physical and spiritual forms have? I dunno.
                        So attacks on mortal host does damage to spirit inside Claimed or Urged?!


                        My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                        LGBT+ in CoD games

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post

                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1077085-2e-spirit-ridden-questions-urged-claimed-and-spirit-thieves?p=1077444#post1077444"]You can see the quote that says otherwise[/URL], can you share where you're getting the idea that a Claiming spirit dies?

                          And Urged aren't really ejected because it's not necessarily inside the target to begin with, they're just Fettered to it.
                          That applies to exorcized people. If the spirit is one with the person, it dies. There's no host distinction.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Malus View Post
                            That applies to exorcized people. If the spirit is one with the person, it dies. There's no host distinction.
                            Apologies, wrong link.

                            But I'll just repeat it. In the original Predators, 'If the merging is complete, the possessing spirit may leave as per above, but the mount has been too changed to survive the transition. If the mount dies, the spirit is instantly released, but the trauma of death leaves it weakened and disoriented, in addition to any damage it received trying to keep the body alive.' The disorientation is represented by a penalty to rolls for a period of time until it re-adapts to its old state.

                            Where does it say the spirit dies with the mount, as you're suggesting?
                            Last edited by nofather; 04-13-2017, 04:09 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                              So attacks on mortal host does damage to spirit inside Claimed or Urged?!
                              I do not think so. It was a suggestion, but I decided to look up Siskur-Dah's condition and a Storm Lord acting as the rite master seems to only allow the ability to sense and see Claimed on-spot, it does not allow a person to destroy the entity outright--you'll need to either drag it into the Shadow or declare Siskur-Dah on the spirit inside the claimed after the Storm Lord has brought it down. EDIT: Ah! Different idea, who thinks that the storm lord's siskur-dah will work on the spirit doing the Claiming if and only if one of the woof's is 2 ranks higher than the Claiming spirit? Such as from Predator's Claim facet?

                              Nofather is currently showing that a Claimed spirit can end its hold over a person in 2E, while showing that I guess in 1E killing the person that was being Claimed would kill the spirit inside--but in 2E we're not so sure? I think that's the situation happening, but they've shown that for sure in 2E, a Claimed can end it's own merger and rip itself away from the victim. The question then is does killing the Claimed before then also kill the spirit.

                              Well it is not much to go off of but I think this helps support it (I can see this not being interpreted the same way I am, but here we go) :" Ending the Condition: Successfully ending the Controlled Condition, or a Claimed Condition resulting from it, against the spirit’s will removes this Condition and reverts the subject to Open." --- pg 189.

                              I think this implies that killing a Claimed will eject the spirit inside. I am for certain what it is saying is that any rite or magic that ends the claimed condition by force will eject the spirit and leave the subject open. It also kinda sorta sounds like killing a claimed will leave the corpse Open to being Claimed :P although probably by a death spirit instead of a Re-Claiming by the original spirit. Unless the Claimed was already a death spirit? Wouldn't that be something! Someone left a funeral with a death spirit and it urged and controlled them over a few weeks until it could Claim them, and when the Storm Lord brings the Claimed down the Death spirit can Re-Claim the corpse cuz the corpse is still in the proper purview? Ugh, jump scares...!

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