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Did i encounter a rules loop?

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  • Did i encounter a rules loop?

    So i was running my WtF game a few days ago and we were doing one of my players tribal initiation.

    The situation was that the PC was fighting at the top of a mountain against a flock of eagle Claimed (it was a Storm lords initiation), the pc had nowhere to go and was completely alone in the top, he enter Gauru and fall into "Basu-im" (the hard rage) and for expedience's sake i decided to use "Down & Dirty Combat".

    The sort of loop in question was they both rolled and the spirit won and per the rules on "Down & Dirty Combat":

    Originally posted by WtF Core, pag 165;
    "Failure: The opponent wins the contest. If the opponent used a combat pool, deal damage equal to the difference in successes plus weapon modifier. Also, the opponent escapes unless he wants to press the combat."
    So the PC take damage.....and then it gets confusing because in Gauru form the character regenerates all lethal damage each turn, the spirit for his part had a dicepool of 5 (8 with willpower) so he would never (unless lots of exploding dices) overflow the lethal track and finally as the character was in Basu-im it meant that he had unlimited turns in the form.

    This resulted in that we were trapped in roll after roll with the spirit winning each round, damaging the werewolf, said werewolf regenerating and rinse and repeat until the player finally, 8 rolls in, got more successes.

    So my question is, did i get something wrong with the rules? Because we notice after the game that "Down & Dirty Combat" is kinda an automatic i-win-button when you are in Gauru with no real possibility of failure. Rolling and rolling until the werewolf wins.
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 04-14-2017, 04:38 PM. Reason: Confused Ridden with Claimed

  • #2
    What was the ridden's goal for the combat and why did it want to continue to press the combat after achieving it?


    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
      So my question is, did i get something wrong with the rules? Because we notice after the game that "Down & Dirty Combat" is kinda an automatic i-win-button when you are in Gauru with no real possibility of failure.
      There are beings and weapons that do aggravated damage to werewolves.

      Presumably the opponent would try to escape if they realized their puny weapons wouldn't harm the werewolf. A convocation of eagles, especially, would have an easy time escaping.

      Then they could just wait him out and eat him while he's unconscious.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
        What was the ridden's goal for the combat and why did it want to continue to press the combat after achieving it?
        The ridden goal was to kill the uratha because he was intruding in their territory so they press combat

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        • #5
          Well, that's rules as intended. If you can't deal enough damage that it wraps over into aggravated, or deals aggravated right off the rip then you should just run away. Lead the werewolf out of your territory, trap it, or abandon it. All other courses are suicide.

          There's a reason why the section on Death Raging packs has everyone passing out and the scene jumping to somewhere else.

          Wait, do you mean Claimed instead of Ridden? If they were just Ridden that fight should have been somewhat assumed to go like that.
          Last edited by Monghani; 04-14-2017, 01:52 PM.

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          • #6
            Claimed is a type of Ridden, just like Urged and Spirit Thieves.
            And yes, that's how it should've gone. A simple minded Ridden who refuses to back down will eventually be beaten to a pulp when it finds an opponent it can't defeat. A Ridden that realizes their goal is unattainable should instead shift goal to something else. Like running away or perhaps, if they're crafty, try to trap their opponent instead of outright battling it.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Monghani View Post
              Well, that's rules as intended. If you can't deal enough damage that it wraps over into aggravated, or deals aggravated right off the rip then you should just run away. Lead the werewolf out of your territory, trap it, or abandon it. All other courses are suicide.

              There's a reason why the section on Death Raging packs has everyone passing out and the scene jumping to somewhere else.

              Wait, do you mean Claimed instead of Ridden? If they were just Ridden that fight should have been somewhat assumed to go like that.
              Yeah my bad it was a claimed.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                The ridden goal was to kill the uratha because he was intruding in their territory
                Then the Uratha should be dead.

                Originally posted by WtF Core, pag 165;
                Success: The character wins the contest. She deals damage equal to the difference in successes plus her weapon modifier and achieves her intent — if her intent includes killing her opponents, then she does so.


                Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                • #9
                  There you go.

                  Drive off the intruder may have been a better goal, unless it was a particularly murderous group of spirits.
                  Last edited by nofather; 04-14-2017, 03:28 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    There you go.

                    Drive off the intruder may have been a better goal, unless it was a particularly murderous group of spirits.
                    Also it may not have been what I would call a "lesser opponent" especially if it took the Uratha 8 tries to beat it in Down & Dirty.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, Claimed are generally pretty powerful. Maybe one eagle alone a lesser opponent but it sounds like there's many.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nofather View Post

                        There are beings and weapons that do aggravated damage to werewolves.

                        Presumably the opponent would try to escape if they realized their puny weapons wouldn't harm the werewolf. A convocation of eagles, especially, would have an easy time escaping.

                        Then they could just wait him out and eat him while he's unconscious.
                        Except that for those enemies the books says to use normal combat and not "Down & Dirty".

                        Originally posted by WtF Core pg 97;
                        Primal Fear: Gauru force all lesser enemies — including most humans, spirits of lower Rank, and non-supernatural animals to use Down and Dirty combat (see p. 165). If the prey hides in a group of more powerful enemies, resolve the combat as normal.
                        An enemy that can deal aggravated wouldnt count as lesser.

                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        And yes, that's how it should've gone. A simple minded Ridden who refuses to back down will eventually be beaten to a pulp when it finds an opponent it can't defeat. A Ridden that realizes their goal is unattainable should instead shift goal to something else. Like running away or perhaps, if they're crafty, try to trap their opponent instead of outright battling it.
                        Not really the Down and dirty combat is a narrative shorthand to avoid rolling each NPC in big combat or expedience in single 1 on 1 combat. However thats not how it should have gone in normal rolls, in normal combat roll the Flock would each get an attack roll and the damage would have stacked and probably cause overflow as the Gauru only regenerates at the start of his turn.

                        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        Success: The character wins the contest. She deals damage equal to the difference in successes plus her weapon modifier and achieves her intent — if her intent includes killing her opponents, then she does so.
                        Except that is kinda weird for a couple of reason. For one the books explicitly tells that no NPC can initiate Down and Dirty combat, that is always PCs being the main actor, and as such the exceptional successes, failures, successes and dramatic failures seem geared towards only applied to the PC.

                        And if we apply that, meaning a failure as result in the opposing character gets his "objective" then is barely to no different than the effect of a dramatic failure.

                        Originally posted by WtF Core pg 165;
                        "Dramatic Failure: The character’s opponent gets the upper hand. This usually includes the opposite of the character’s intent if she wanted to disable the guards so she could escape, she is stunned instead."
                        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                        Also it may not have been what I would call a "lesser opponent" especially if it took the Uratha 8 tries to beat it in Down & Dirty.
                        He was rolling 13+ dices vs 5 to 8 (WP) but he rolled 1 to 2 success while the eagle rolled 4, 5 and couple of 6 successes.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                          Except that for those enemies the books says to use normal combat and not "Down & Dirty".

                          An enemy that can deal aggravated wouldnt count as lesser.
                          Honestly I'd say it depends. A human with a silver knife or even a sword, unless they're some sort of super warrior, is going to be a lesser opponent. Anyways the book doesn't say that anything that can deal aggravated doesn't count as lesser.

                          Except that is kinda weird for a couple of reason. For one the books explicitly tells that no NPC can initiate Down and Dirty combat, that is always PCs being the main actor, and as such the exceptional successes, failures, successes and dramatic failures seem geared towards only applied to the PC.

                          And if we apply that, meaning a failure as result in the opposing character gets his "objective" then is barely to no different than the effect of a dramatic failure.
                          Either way the result is the same. The eagles leave until the werewolf passes out and peck and claw the werewolf apart, or they kill it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nofather View Post
                            Either way the result is the same. The eagles leave until the werewolf passes out and peck and claw the werewolf apart, or they kill it.
                            That wouldnt fly either, say the eagles leave the combat, the werewolf pass out and end of the scene. New scene, eagles comes back and the werewolf can change once again to gauru (as you can only change to it once per scene) and we go back were we started. Unless, i gonna pull the asshat DM move and say "sorry your character doesnt wake up as he is being torn to shreds he dead".

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                              That wouldnt fly either, say the eagles leave the combat, the werewolf pass out and end of the scene. New scene, eagles comes back and the werewolf can change once again to gauru (as you can only change to it once per scene) and we go back were we started. Unless, i gonna pull the asshat DM move and say "sorry your character doesnt wake up as he is being torn to shreds he dead".
                              It's not quite a new scene when the birds just hang out of reach for ten.

                              And a flock of Claimed eagles would be able to tear apart a sleeping werewolf in hishu very fast. He wouldn't really get a chance to turn gauru unless getting hurt was a trigger.

                              As asshat DM it might seem, it's a player going alone against a pack of Claimed that have better maneuverability.

                              Gauru and Kuruth are powerful but they're not necessarily instant win buttons and getting in over your head and being unable to escape is always a possibility.

                              Obviously if you don't want to kill off the PC you can come up with some reason to justify keeping them alive, storyteller fiat and all. For instance it seems like with the drastic difference in size of dice pools eventually the gauru would win. But just going by the rules as written and how you've described the situation it seems like they'd die.
                              Last edited by nofather; 04-14-2017, 04:29 PM.

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