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  • #16
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    And a flock of Claimed eagles would be able to tear apart a sleeping werewolf in hishu very fast. He wouldn't really get a chance to turn gauru unless getting hurt was a trigger.
    Transforming into gauru is an reflexive action with Essence expenditure or balanced enough Harmony. And entering in kuruth makes it reflexive action.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Gauru and Kuruth are powerful but they're not necessarily instant win buttons and getting in over your head and being unable to escape is always a possibility.
    In normal combat rules this is absolutely true. However the way the Down and dirty combat interacts with the Kuruth/gauru rules is poorly designed. I get what they wanted to do make a expedient way for the whole "Werewolf kills a group of helpless humans" in a expeditive way, but i think they never planed on "what happens if the werewolf loses the roll? But doesnt make it a Dramatic Failure." and just copy paste from the Chrod book.


    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    But just going by the rules as written and how you've described the situation it seems like they'd die.
    No, going by RAW a failure in the rolls means only that the PC takes damage and if the NPC doesnt wanna run they we do the roll again.

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Obviously if you don't want to kill off the PC you can come up with some reason to justify keeping them alive, storyteller fiat and all.
    Yeah, thats why i posted wanted to make sure i read the rules right. It seems to me the "Down and Dirty" rules were written with human vs human in mind and they are a poor fit for werewolf so i might remove them or say that the damage the werewolf gain when he fails is aggravated.
    Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 04-14-2017, 04:40 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
      Transforming into gauru is an reflexive action with Essence expenditure or balanced enough Harmony. And entering in kuruth makes it reflexive action.
      Yes, you haven't said what their Harmony was but I was guessing 7, what with them just being initiated into a tribe. And you don't just 'turn on' Kuruth, without a specific trigger it would require you staying in gauru too long. Though I'm still of the belief it's the same scene.

      In normal combat rules this is absolutely true. However the way the Down and dirty combat interacts with the Kuruth/gauru rules is poorly designed.
      How so?

      Incidentally, you said there were multiple eagles, but you only mentioned one dice roll. As part of the Down and Dirty rules multiple attackers with the same intent are allowed to use the Teamwork rule, offering the primary actor a bonus die or large dice penalty.

      Yeah, thats why i posted wanted to make sure i read the rules right. It seems to me the "Down and Dirty" rules were written with human vs human in mind and they are a poor fit for werewolf so i might remove them or say that the damage the werewolf gain when he fails is aggravated.
      It might be a harsh change to make in the middle of a game but you can go for it.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        Though I'm still of the belief it's the same scene.
        Yeah i didnt discussed that part because what counts and doesnt counts as scene depends on the game and DM in question. To me Kuruth running out its course is normally the end of the scene. Player looses control of their PC, rolls are made if necesary and fade to black for next scene with the character waking up to the consequence of their rage. However i could see DMs running other ways.


        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        How so?
        Well for Human vs Human the rules work. Both PC and NPC define intend and they roll.

        If the PC wins, the character is dead or the PC archives his goal. Combat ends

        If the PC fails but takes a beat for a Dramatic failure, then the NPC archieves his goal or the opposite of what the PC wants (normally are the same but not always). Combat ends

        On a failure the NPC deals lethal damage to the PC. And if the NPC doesnt run then they go at it again. But on both ways there is a definite end to the rolls, either the PC eventually wins or he fills his health track and dies. Combat ends.

        However Gauru form regenerates all damage lethal and bashing each turn which means it makes the failure result meaningless. Both keep rolling and rolling until by the PC wins the rolls. Because the probabilities of a NPC dealing 10+ damage (assuming a human health of minimun 6) is very very far fetched.

        If the idea was to reduce needlessly rolls in combat then it fails when the PC keeps failing the rolls and we are forced to re roll until he inevitable wins. So as way to reduce needlessly rolls one could just cut the middle man and just say "You transform into gauru against puny enemies, they die and no roll is necessary" and be done with it and reach the exact same inescapable result the Down and dirty combat rules achieve as written right now minus 1 to 8 rolls with the same amount of risk for the PC, meaning none.

        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        Incidentally, you said there were multiple eagles, but you only mentioned one dice roll. As part of the Down and Dirty rules multiple attackers with the same intent are allowed to use the Teamwork rule, offering the primary actor a bonus die or large dice penalty.
        Yeah i took them into account, eagles have kind of shitty stats to begin with. I used the stats for crows in Wild at heart post from the Onyx path page and double them for eagles. Just didnt wanna bog down the whole thread with what each eagle past the first got in their roll.

        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        It might be a harsh change to make in the middle of a game but you can go for it.
        In my particular game it wouldnt matter much, it was the first time we use the Down and dirty rules 5 month into the campaign and the player describe the whole thing as a drag.
        Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 04-14-2017, 05:12 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
          Except that is kinda weird for a couple of reason. For one the books explicitly tells that no NPC can initiate Down and Dirty combat, that is always PCs being the main actor, and as such the exceptional successes, failures, successes and dramatic failures seem geared towards only applied to the PC.

          And if we apply that, meaning a failure as result in the opposing character gets his "objective" then is barely to no different than the effect of a dramatic failure.
          Down and Dirty Combat is a contested action. someone has to Succeed at it. NPCs might not be able to initiate Down and Dirty but they still benefit from the results of winning the Contested action. The winner achieves their intent and can escape if they want to, and if they won with five Successes or more they regain a point of Willpower. The loser takes damage equal to the difference in successes plus the winner's weapon modifier, and if they lost with a 1 on a chance die or take a Dramatic Failure for a Beat, then something happens that is the opposite of their Intent.

          Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
          He was rolling 13+ dices vs 5 to 8 (WP) but he rolled 1 to 2 success while the eagle rolled 4, 5 and couple of 6 successes.
          Still doesn't necessarily sound like a lesser opponent to me. I wouldn't consider a spirit opponent lesser unless the werewolf outranked it enough to count as its Bane, and in such a case I would think it's intent on combat with such a werewolf would be to escape or to drive the werewolf off. Basically, if killing the Uratha is a goal the opponent can reasonably expect to be able to achieve, it probably isn't weak enough to be forced into Down and Dirty.


          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
            Still doesn't necessarily sound like a lesser opponent to me. I wouldn't consider a spirit opponent lesser unless the werewolf outranked it enough to count as its Bane, and in such a case I would think it's intent on combat with such a werewolf would be to escape or to drive the werewolf off. Basically, if killing the Uratha is a goal the opponent can reasonably expect to be able to achieve, it probably isn't weak enough to be forced into Down and Dirty.
            I should note that those 5 dice were after applying teamwork bonuses.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post

              I should note that those 5 dice were after applying teamwork bonuses.
              Ok. Why are these spirits attacking with intent to kill such a vastly superior foe? Shouldn't their intent be to get away from it safely or to scare it away or something?


              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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              • #22
                This isn't a rules loop. Down & Dirty combat is done in that one roll. It's important to know what each side's intentions are going into it. In this case, the player lost, if the Ridden was aiming to kill him, technically he's dead, regardless of how much actual damage was calculated. If this feels a bit cheap, then something else good for the Ridden happens. He either fights the werewolf off his territory (if that was his aim), or he fights the rampaging werewolf to a standstill in an epic showdown until Base-Im wears off. Kuruth doesn't last forever - unless the character is high Primal Urge, it's done in less than an hour, and probably less than half an hour.

                What I'd recommend in this scenario is taking advantage of the Fade To Black option (p. 103) - character enters Base-Im, Down & Dirty occurs, player loses, fades to black. Character wakes up somewhere strange, captive of the RIdden, who loom over him and say 'now, here's what we're going to do with you' and the game continues, now with added drama.


                Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  The loser takes damage equal to the difference in successes plus the winner's weapon modifier, and if they lost with a 1 on a chance die or take a Dramatic Failure for a Beat, then something happens that is the opposite of their Intent.
                  Then whats the difference between a dramatic failure and failure them? Or better put, how come a dramatic failure is better than a failure. In both apparently the opposing PC gets his objective but on a failure on top of that you get damage.

                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  Still doesn't necessarily sound like a lesser opponent to me. I wouldn't consider a spirit opponent lesser unless the werewolf outranked it enough to count as its Bane, and in such a case I would think it's intent on combat with such a werewolf would be to escape or to drive the werewolf off.
                  Would it make a difference if i used regular crows then? Because i use their stats with a +2 to their attack roll and the dread power of weapon damage +3. That is.

                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  Ok. Why are these spirits attacking with intent to kill such a vastly superior foe? Shouldn't their intent be to get away from it safely or to scare it away or something?
                  I think you are going off point on why did or didnt the spirit run away. That it stay to fight is the base situation why it didnt choose otherwise is not relevant, the rules says that after the PC failure on the roll the spirit can get away unless he wants to press combat. That the option of staying to combat is not viable via wonky rules (as in normal combat the flock stood a chance) is the problem.

                  As for why it didnt run away it was for a couple of reason, the main one was that that was i as DM wanted a small mindless monster to attack him during his tribal initiation and running away after "winning" was contrary to that. Secondly that was the intent of the PC (to make the flock leave him alone while he finished his tribal initiation) until he felt into kuruth.


                  Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                  This isn't a rules loop. Down & Dirty combat is done in that one roll. It's important to know what each side's intentions are going into it. In this case, the player lost, if the Ridden was aiming to kill him, technically he's dead, regardless of how much actual damage was calculated. If this feels a bit cheap, then something else good for the Ridden happens. He either fights the werewolf off his territory (if that was his aim), or he fights the rampaging werewolf to a standstill in an epic showdown until Base-Im wears off. Kuruth doesn't last forever - unless the character is high Primal Urge, it's done in less than an hour, and probably less than half an hour.

                  What I'd recommend in this scenario is taking advantage of the Fade To Black option (p. 103) - character enters Base-Im, Down & Dirty occurs, player loses, fades to black. Character wakes up somewhere strange, captive of the RIdden, who loom over him and say 'now, here's what we're going to do with you' and the game continues, now with added drama.
                  Thank you for the suggestion, and the clarification. It wouldnt have worked for my game as i made the spirits lower ranked enough to be barely intelligent (the animalistic kind), i could however just rule that the PC felt from the mountain. But its a good way to handle down and dirty combat bypassing its wonky writing.

                  However comments like this

                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  Basically, if killing the Uratha is a goal the opponent can reasonably expect to be able to achieve, it probably isn't weak enough to be forced into Down and Dirty.
                  Made me come to the conclusion that the rules is just plainly badly designed for Gauru and they their existence dont benefit my games in any shape or form. I will remove it from my games and resolve each combat roll individually or in the case of lesser opponents just say "you transform, everyone dies, next scene" as is the same inescapable result with less rolls.
                  Last edited by LokiRavenSpeak; 04-15-2017, 10:06 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    Then whats the difference between a dramatic failure and failure them? Or better put, how come a dramatic failure is better than a failure. In both apparently the opposing PC gets his objective but on a failure on top of that you get damage.
                    You take the damage either way. The difference is, on a Failure the opponent achieves their intent and you take the damage; on a Dramatic Failure the opponent achieves their intent, you take the damage, and something happens that is the opposite of your own intent.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    Would it make a difference if i used regular crows then? Because i use their stats with a +2 to their attack roll and the dread power of weapon damage +3. That is.
                    Sure? Again though, if they're this weak, why is their intent to kill? It should be pretty obvious to them that they can't kill the Uratha, so they should aim for a more reasonable goal, like driving it out of their territory.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    I think you are going off point on why did or didnt the spirit run away. That it stay to fight is the base situation why it didnt choose otherwise is not relevant, the rules says that after the PC failure on the roll the spirit can get away unless he wants to press combat. That the option of staying to combat is not viable via wonky rules (as in normal combat the flock stood a chance) is the problem.
                    Down and Dirty resolves the entire Combat in a single roll, that's the point. If it's "staying in Combat", then that's still part of the same action covered by the Down and Dirty roll. If the flock one, they should have achieved their intent through the course of the fight, however long it may have been. There's really no reason to start another fight, unless they have another goal they want to use violence to achieve as well.

                    Originally posted by LokiRavenSpeak View Post
                    As for why it didnt run away it was for a couple of reason, the main one was that that was i as DM wanted a small mindless monster to attack him during his tribal initiation and running away after "winning" was contrary to that. Secondly that was the intent of the PC (to make the flock leave him alone while he finished his tribal initiation) until he felt into kuruth.
                    It still seems to me like "Kill the PC" is an odd goal for such an enemy to have. If its purpose was to be a nuisance I don't imagine you were expecting it to kill the PC. But, whatever, you're right, that's not the point. The point is, it won Down and Dirty, so it gets what it wanted, which was apparently to kill the PC.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • #25
                      I'm sorry, this advice is completely wrong. Down and dirty combat when failed does not kill the PC. When initiated by the PC the enemies don't state any intent. Losing down and dirty combat as the PC who initiated it means you take damage and revert to normal combat if the enemy wishes to continue, otherwise they get away. Dramatic failure I would say could kill the PC as it is a reversal of intent entirely. Otherwise there is nothing in the rules that supports the idea that a PC dies who loses.

                      The argument that it is contested and therefore someone has to win is flawed. Does a human who wins a contested roll against a vampire using dominate reverse the dominate and control the vampires mind? No, that is silly. Same thing for this. The rule are very simple and clear in their intent.

                      "Failure: The opponent wins the contest. If the opponent used a combat pool, deal damage equal to the difference in successes plus weapon modifier. Also, the opponent escapes unless he wants to press the combat."

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
                        I'm sorry, this advice is completely wrong. Down and dirty combat when failed does not kill the PC. When initiated by the PC the enemies don't state any intent. Losing down and dirty combat as the PC who initiated it means you take damage and revert to normal combat if the enemy wishes to continue, otherwise they get away. Dramatic failure I would say could kill the PC as it is a reversal of intent entirely. Otherwise there is nothing in the rules that supports the idea that a PC dies who loses.

                        The argument that it is contested and therefore someone has to win is flawed. Does a human who wins a contested roll against a vampire using dominate reverse the dominate and control the vampires mind? No, that is silly. Same thing for this. The rule are very simple and clear in their intent.

                        "Failure: The opponent wins the contest. If the opponent used a combat pool, deal damage equal to the difference in successes plus weapon modifier. Also, the opponent escapes unless he wants to press the combat."
                        I'm pretty sure Bunyip's advice, as one of the people who wrote the rules, is not wrong.

                        EDIT: And even under this interpretation, it's not a rules loop. If an NPC can't initiate Down and Dirty Combat, then the crows don't have the option of pressing the Combat against the werewolf, since he forces Down and Dirty and they can't initiate that.
                        Last edited by Charlaquin; 04-22-2017, 03:32 PM.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #27
                          Saying "Well he said so" is not a convincing argument.

                          From WtF core pg. 165 "Storyteller characters might deal some damage, but they’re never able to initiate a Down and Dirty Combat."

                          Why have this sentence in there if a NPC who wins automatically kills their opponent? There is a clear difference between a PC winning and a NPC winning.

                          I do agree there is no rules loop, a Down and dirty combat failed then reverts to normal combat if it continues. The OP did it wrong either way

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
                            Saying "Well he said so" is not a convincing argument.
                            It is when the person who said so is an authority on the subject. That's we cite our sources in academic discourse.

                            Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
                            From WtF core pg. 165 "Storyteller characters might deal some damage, but they’re never able to initiate a Down and Dirty Combat."

                            Why have this sentence in there if a NPC who wins automatically kills their opponent?
                            I don't follow. Why would a statement about who can or can't start something imply anything about what happens when it's finished?

                            Also, an NPC who wins doesn't automatically kill their opponent under my interpretation, unless that's the NPC's intent in the Combat, which 9 times out of 10 it shouldn't be. Violence is usually a means to an end, murder is usually not the goal in and of itself.

                            Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
                            There is a clear difference between a PC winning and a NPC winning.
                            I disagree with that interpretation. Both parties are making Down and Dirty Combat rolls, the results of Success don't change based on who initiated it.

                            Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
                            I do agree there is no rules loop, a Down and dirty combat failed then reverts to normal combat if it continues. The OP did it wrong either way
                            Err... It can't revert to normal Combat, that's one of the effects of Gauru form.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #29
                              The primary authority in any discussion on rules is the rulebook itself. The rules give us an explicit reading of what happens when a player fails a down and dirty combat roll. 'The opponent wins the contest. If the opponent used a combat pool, he deals damage equal to the difference in successes plus weapon modifier. Also, the opponent escapes unless he wants to press the combat.'

                              Additionally, even on a dramatic failure, the NPC does not have a stated goal. On a dramatic failure, ' The character’s opponent gets the upper hand in addition to dealing damage, as with failure. This usually includes the opposite of the character’s intent — if she wanted to disable the guards so she could escape, she is stunned instead.' This doesn't include the NPC achieving their goal - indeed, an NPC has no stated goal in a down and dirty combat roll. It simply grants them an upper hand, which the storyteller is encouraged to make related to the PCs goal.

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                              • #30
                                Well, the authority that overrules the book would be the developer, not the writer, but I'm not seeing that as important.

                                It is important to keep in mind the rules for Down and Dirty Combat were PC-centric in the writing. Both sides roll and the results are given from the perspective of the player. The player can win (success) and roll exceptionally well (exceptional success) or lose which is the same thing as the NPC winning (failure) and when the PC dramatically fails you have the obvious result. Whether someone wants to go with NPC intent or the opposite of PC intent on a dramatic failure rolled by the PC they should have died.

                                If I have this straight, the NPC won the roll but the werewolf didn't dramatically fail. The spirit didn't want to run away so the combat was fought to a standstill. Either you Fade to Black or switch to normal combat because the werewolf has switched to Hishu due to falling out of Rage. No rules loop. I think Bunyip was more or less on the right track.

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