Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Herd Must Not Know - Questions

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    So, is I'm getting it right - You only break Herd tenet if your Harmony is hit, i.e. when showing humans transformation or regeneration? What about Gifts or Rites then - if mortal would see them would 'Herd Know'?
    Depending how flagrant those are, yes. Growing a pair of mole-like claws is more obvious than a sudden blackout.

    Comment


    • #17
      You really should consider posting these in the Simple Questions threas wyrdhamster

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        So, is I'm getting it right - You only break Herd tenet if your Harmony is hit, i.e. when showing humans transformation or regeneration? What about Gifts or Rites then - if mortal would see them would 'Herd Know'?
        Announcing you're a werewolf would be a big one, too. Or that there's an entire race of werewolves living among humans. But not everyone has the book and knows that Iron Master is a werewolf tribe.

        Then it would depend on the rite or Gift. Most of them are not visually obvious or can simply be lied around. 'I know that guy's name,' is not going to make everyone realize you're a werewolf and there's werewolves hunting among us.
        Last edited by nofather; 05-10-2017, 10:22 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          So, is I'm getting it right - You only break Herd tenet if your Harmony is hit, i.e. when showing humans transformation or regeneration? What about Gifts or Rites then - if mortal would see them would 'Herd Know'?
          You also violate the oath if you tell a human about werewolves. Saying "I'm an Iron Master." is fine because it doesn't mention anything about werewolves and could refer to a human organisation like a fitness studio, a band, of a security company. However, "Iron masters are werewolves who have specialised in living in large settlements and hunting humans therein. I'm one of them." would be a violation of the oath. Similarly leaving a track of wolf-to-human footprints for humans to discover would not be a good idea.

          Comment


          • #20
            Yeah, "the herd must not know" means the herd must not know werewolves exist, not the herd must not know Red Wolf is a name, or the herd must not know there is a group called Iron Masters. Neither of those things give any information about the existence of werewolves. As demonstrated, Red Wolf is the name of a bar that actually exists in real life, and Iron Masters is apparently a fitness club. Simply hearing those names with no context wouldn't make most people think "this must have something to do with werewolves. Werewolves must be real." If those names were mentioned as the name of a group of werewolves and its Totem spirit, then yeah, that would violate the Oath.


            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              (Besides, if the Iron Masters have anything to do with that place, it's likely to be a trap for their prey.)
              I dread to think what Black Wolf Bar & Grille must be like.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                I dread to think what Black Wolf Bar & Grille must be like.
                If the Hunters are involved at all, it's even more likely to just be a bar and grille than if the Iron Masters actually gave shit about a place. If a place matters at all, then it's purity(spiritually, at the very least) must be maintained.

                On the larger topic, saying the name of things is not impressive. Back when City of Heroes was a thing, I had a villains guild named the Iron Masters after my character in that game*. I've had numerous conversations where I or a friend of mine said "I'm a werewolf" to some effect. The Red Wolf Bar and Grille was mentioned as a point: words don't reveal anything in a casual context. If I were a werewolf, I could announce my new Sagrim-Ur pinot noir** to everyone in the area and honestly the Forsaken would more likely smack me up the head than any hunter or Pure, and that's just for disrespecting the Firstborn. Names are just things people use and discard, their weight left entirely to how it's handled and the gravitas given, or casually left around.

                It has to be something that reveals the werewolves, something that goes beyond mere word usage-revealing the cults that are the Uratha's pack when they are engaging in actual occult practice, changing in front of someone, using the Forsaken's cultural terms deliberately as a way to bring in wolves and organize them in such a way that is a discernable and followable pattern, stuff like that is a problem.

                Going back to the "I'm in the Iron Masters" thing, that by itself doesn't matter-but if someone catches me kicking in someone's face and finishing by saying "The Iron Masters send their regards***", that's more concerning, because someone's gonna start investigating that shit if it keeps happening, and that will lead to possible werewolf revelations. If I mention the Iron Masters to a friend of mine explaining how every single one of them is getting dreams that relate to the weird shit going on recently and make it clear that there's something a nosy nearby listener will build on, I still haven't crossed the line of The Herd Must Not Know, much like I haven't before-but if someone catches me doing my gnarly Dalu handshakes with an entire coven of Iron Masters and establish that where the utterance of Iron Masters is, there be monsters-My ass is officially toast, and it's not gonna be long before the Lunes or the other packs transition that from officially-but-figuratively to officially-and-literally.

                I can tell people all I want that I'm a werewolf and never get a lick of shit, but the instant they actually get that I'm not just saying that, that's when I'd get in trouble.

                Proof is what must be kept from the Herd. Mere words are not proof. Words merely by themselves are fickle illusions.

                *Mastermind, Thugs/Traps, Gabriel Maze, small time gangster moving up after knocking off a tech company. He was cool.
                **Honestly, if I was gonna do something alcoholic under Sagrim-Ur's name, it'd have to be a mystery cocktail each night or something.
                ***Not how Tribes work. Realistically, if a line like that was uttered, it'd more likely be the pack name, like Stratford Spears or Avon Tempests or some shit like that.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                Comment


                • #23
                  As to Tribe we are now, do I get it right that Storm Lords would be most driven to upholding Oath's of Moon tenet, with Herd Must Not Know one as most driven? Lords are against showing any weakness and pointing that 'hey, they are werewolves there!' can be at least seen as Hunt disadvantage.

                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  ***Not how Tribes work. Realistically, if a line like that was uttered, it'd more likely be the pack name, like Stratford Spears or Avon Tempests or some shit like that.
                  Even if working in area Pack name was dropped - and this particular Pack is committed to 'Cosa Nostra-like' action - would it be enough to pinpoint wolves? Pack is, in the end, semi-visible organisation in area, as Totem cult.


                  My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                  LGBT+ through Ages
                  LGBT+ in CoD games

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                    Even if working in area Pack name was dropped - and this particular Pack is committed to 'Cosa Nostra-like' action - would it be enough to pinpoint wolves? Pack is, in the end, semi-visible organisation in area, as Totem cult.
                    It would be enough to pinpoint something that is going on. From what you're saying, they basically seem like nothing more than another gang working itself up as an entrenched organization. Depending on who's digging and how they're digging, in opposition to the pack's efforts to keep themselves hidden from their enemies(in this case, humans), this could be anything from "they'll never even get close to the truth" to "Oh shit, you caught me with my wolf wang out."

                    Like, based on what you said and the rules of narrative, sooner or later somebody's gonna find out, and then the pack is gonna have to answer some questions as regards to whether or not they actually value the Oath of the Moon or not and, if so, how they're going to approach keeping that quiet- but that's just about as true for any active group, although your lot is likely going to encounter those questions faster.

                    But yes, I think the nature of this group means that at least the cops and rival gangs are gonna start investigating, and while names aren't breaks in and of themselves, they are a thing you can follow-not that the trail of open crime you hint at doesn't trail back already. They aren't in the fire yet, but it's getting hot.

                    And the Storm Lords as a general rule aren't more likely to make a big ass deal out of the Oath than anyone else-if a Tribe arbitrarily makes "Keep the Oath of the Moon At All Times" a thing, it's probably the Purity driven Hunters-although individual members who do think of the Oath in the manner you described will be damned strict about it (namely the Rahu, because of that Purity thing again). Like, it's probably not as big a deal for them as everyone else as a general rule, but those who do make an issue of it will be damned sure to make a big deal out of it.

                    That said, I can see it at least being something every Storm Lord comes to a decision about, even if it doesn't predominantly side on Strict-Oath-Keeping.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The Iron Masters probably see skirting as close to the line as possible without crossing it as a test of Cunning.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Okay, so cructial question here - WHEN you roll on Harmony Breaking Point beacuse of Herd tenent - when you mention Pack or Tribe name that can lead to investigation? Or in the moment when Uratha finds out his enemies started investigation to him? Because those two takes leads to totally different gameplay. In first is - 'ST: You mentioned name of your Pack/Tribe to humans - roll on Breaking Point to Spirit.'

                        In second it's 'ST: Three sessions ago you spoke this little name of your Tribe to mortal - now you are hunted. Roll Breaking Point to Spirit.'

                        In other words - Does this mean I need to remember as ST each instance like this? From what I know, Harmony works in 'direct' way - it reacts to any your action that could break it in either way,

                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Like, based on what you said and the rules of narrative, sooner or later somebody's gonna find out, and then the pack is gonna have to answer some questions as regards to whether or not they actually value the Oath of the Moon or not and, if so, how they're going to approach keeping that quiet- but that's just about as true for any active group, although your lot is likely going to encounter those questions faster.

                        But yes, I think the nature of this group means that at least the cops and rival gangs are gonna start investigating, and while names aren't breaks in and of themselves, they are a thing you can follow-not that the trail of open crime you hint at doesn't trail back already. They aren't in the fire yet, but it's getting hot.
                        See above question to this whole part as example.


                        My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                        LGBT+ through Ages
                        LGBT+ in CoD games

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          Okay, so cructial question here - WHEN you roll on Harmony Breaking Point beacuse of Herd tenent - when you mention Pack or Tribe name that can lead to investigation? Or in the moment when Uratha finds out his enemies started investigation to him? Because those two takes leads to totally different gameplay. In first is - 'ST: You mentioned name of your Pack/Tribe to humans - roll on Breaking Point to Spirit.'

                          In second it's 'ST: Three sessions ago you spoke this little name of your Tribe to mortal - now you are hunted. Roll Breaking Point to Spirit.'

                          In other words - Does this mean I need to remember as ST each instance like this? From what I know, Harmony works in 'direct' way - it reacts to any your action that could break it in either way,



                          See above question to this whole part as example.
                          Barring my normal answers of "You'll know when you're at that point" and "when in doubt, ask the table", I'd argue the good guidelines is when the human who has discovered the truth has escaped (without consequence) the PC's active ability to intercede in favor of secrecy, or perhaps more simply when the results of revelation becomes the potential for consequences.

                          Few scenarios to explain what I mean. Let's assume I'm a werewolf and my roommate is human and he walks in on me while I am very clearly werewolfing it up.

                          If I kill him before he leaves, I'm good.
                          If I persuade/intimidate him into keeping quiet before he leaves, I'm good.
                          If I persuade him to join the pack and keep my secret, I'm good.
                          If I chase after him as he leaves, I'm good until I lose him, in which case I'm in trouble.
                          If I use a power (innate, Gift, Rite, whatever) to enforce his secrecy(willing or not) or punish him for attempting to violate it before he leaves, I'm good.
                          If I use a power (as above) to punish him after he violates the secret before he leaves, it depends on how the other party takes it, but I'm probably in trouble.
                          If I somehow get him to keep quiet but he then, willingly or not, informs another party in such a way that it will dramatically determine that party's actions, I'm in trouble.
                          If I do nothing before he leaves, I'm in trouble.

                          Obviously those examples raise questions about "can you be retroactively punished for violations like that?", which is why they are merely examples and not to be taken as gospel. THe best guideline is the one for more situations-roll when there are narrative consequences.

                          EDIT: And it has to be revelation of the world of the Forsaken. If they start investigating because they heard of Iron Masters in too many wrong places, that doesn't matter. In order to violate The Herd Must Not Know, the harmony break is always going to be tied to The Herd Knowing.
                          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 06-07-2017, 07:25 PM.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                            Let's assume I'm a werewolf and my roommate is human.
                            Your roommate have really hard life with you. Thanks for explanation, now I see clearly how to judge those things in game.


                            My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                            LGBT+ through Ages
                            LGBT+ in CoD games

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                              Your roommate have really hard life with you. Thanks for explanation, now I see clearly how to judge those things in game.
                              You have no idea.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                                WHEN you roll on Harmony Breaking Point beacuse of Herd tenent - when you mention Pack or Tribe name that can lead to investigation?
                                When you're liberal with your supernatural attributes and lunacy just doesn't cuts it. Ironically, the Iron Master Siskur Dah rite helps with that a lot.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X